WW CCXLVII - DOOM OF THE WEREYAK 8: HASTINAPUR, 722 BC

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Sleepyhead

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So what you're saying is that it was just a one-night stand and Wagon shouldn't have become so emotionally invested in it?

Deep.
Not quite, that would entail there being some mutual, let's say carnal, interest which was definitely lacking here.

It's more like getting thrown in a jail cell as an innocent and then the mass murderer takes a liking to you.

Or being forced into a play-date with pre-adolescent children by your mother, not as one yourself but as a moody teenager.
 

Capage

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Thanks for hosting, yakman and good riddance, waffles.

Forgetting to submit a standing order was a mistake (I thought I would be more consistently active). Killing Passport instead of a wolf probably was a turning point for village. I guess it could have been prevented, but I usually didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the thread and vote movement before deadline (usually got back just after the deadline).
Being a priest was a new experience. You can't really start a jl (at least not early on), so your only option is to share your scans with a proven villager. Ideally someone who rallied against both packs. And even after multiple bigs I'm still unsure on mechanics of cultists. I hope to rand priest again in order to redeem my mistakes and to play it little more ballsy. I guess priest staying alive late game is good, but having some early scans is better.
 

randakar

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Not "some" early scans.
You should be scanning every night. Information is power.
 
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Yakman

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Thanks for hosting, yakman and good riddance, waffles.

Forgetting to submit a standing order was a mistake (I thought I would be more consistently active). Killing Passport instead of a wolf probably was a turning point for village. I guess it could have been prevented, but I usually didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the thread and vote movement before deadline (usually got back just after the deadline).
Being a priest was a new experience. You can't really start a jl (at least not early on), so your only option is to share your scans with a proven villager. Ideally someone who rallied against both packs. And even after multiple bigs I'm still unsure on mechanics of cultists. I hope to rand priest again in order to redeem my mistakes and to play it little more ballsy. I guess priest staying alive late game is good, but having some early scans is better.
You sent in one scan order.
 

Yakman

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@Yakman did you let Dedonus be my apprentice because of how bad the village was looking?
You brought up a good point. A clairvoyant is a scanner. The apprentice triggers when scanned. It's a reasonable ask, and it makes sense.
 
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PanzerCorps

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Nah I was talking about the stuff at the end. Don't get me wrong I see the pack rivalry as part of the game as well.

Lying when your on a different team is one thing, I like the plots, ploys and machinations to achieve a win for a group. Sorcerer is different that role wins with either pack and is a baddie. You're not part of one team or the other, you're out for yourself. It's expected that you'll have to betray one set of allies to achieve victory. That's a bit too backstabby for me. Guess I'm just not wired that way. I blame the Marines.
Hm yeah fair enough, the stuff at the end was very confusing for me also. Also now that I've learned more about how the packs got in touch I think it makes more sense than I thought. I guess a small game with lots of baddie scanners will have them finding each other early, from there much wackiness can ensue.


Awesome!! I'll PM you for planning!

In.
Oh wait, wrong thread ..

Heh, patience :D I posted that pretty late yesterday, today we can start planning and hopefully have the thread up tomorrow
 
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CaptainGrimlock

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Chieron

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You brought up a good point. A clairvoyant is a scanner. The apprentice triggers when scanned. It's a reasonable ask, and it makes sense.
Would Dedonus have become an apprentice wolf to Sleepy had he been scanned by him?

Or apprentice cultist to e.g. Wombat
 

Wagonlitz

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I was exceedingly unhappy with the hunting arrangement. We were the weaker side, so doing the dirty work for you was not going to happen indefinitely.
I backstabbed you, because our only chance was to hit one of you who we did not know about at the moment. You would've been happy to hit me, just as well.
I suspected aedan would use his power on Arkasas that night, so the pack balance switched..
I wouldn't say you necessarily were the weaker side.
You actually had useful traits. You had a clairvoyance and the cub. Perhaps more, in case you had some.
We had a grand total of a single trait. Arky's brutal, whihc, while not useless, isn't that valuable as you always lose a mate if you get to use a brutal. At least with the cub you get a double hunt whihc can be used at any time.
The offset we got was that we started with two cuiltists, whereas you started with one and the sorc. But given that cultists WILL switch side if beneficial, then that's not really any kind of real offset.

I figured you'd want your cultists to win in your severely disadvantaged situation, but I figured wrongly.
Normally I would, but you literally stabbed me in the back and then taunted me about it.
And with Chieron confirming that you did go for our last mate's neck, rather than the Panzer hunt being random, then it's clear now that you did stab us in the back.

Once again, as I also wrote int he PM. It's not the truce being called off that's the problem for me. It was never going to last. It's the way it was done in. Given that you yourself literally had said to have a truce until the major goodies were dead, whihc they weren't yet, then you deciding to outright fun for Panzer, as opposed to randomly hitting him, defintely is a stab in the back. You hunted that night so you could easily have told us that day, possibly even just before deadline, that the truce was up.
But doing it after the fact, and especially being taunting too, just didn't sit right with me, so I decided to play every single chance I had, no matter how unlikely.

Thanks to alxeu's contact with Wagon that chance was basically zero, but he might have managed to trick some people.
I'm a man of my word. If I give my word that I won't hunt somebody, then I'll keep it. I gave Alxeu my word. Wombat can confirm that I refused to tell him alxeu's name.

hope that Chieron would hunt two villagers
There's no chance of that, espceially not as I voted Sleepy at deadline. Had I sniped off Sleepy then perhaps, though I'd still doubt it.

I still don't know the entirety of his plan. I just don't believe Alxeu would have done anything to help him win either. I still don't see how the self outing could have won him the game.
I do thing @alxeu was legit, but I cuold be wrong.
In any case then my plan basically was to force the village to lynch the other wolf and to then hope I didn't hit the target alxeu had set. (I fully expected he'd make me the patsy meaning I'd hunt myself in that case.)
Not great chances of succeeding, but there was a chance, and with Sleepy's backstabbing then that was enouhg for me to go on.

I literally almost blew the beans the night Arky was shot due to how it said hunted, and not shot. Had aedan not posted a few minute earlier, saying he'd shot Arky, then I would have outed Sleepy then and there as the way Yakman wrote it made it sound like it was two hunts.
 

Wagonlitz

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Changeling could've tried to interfere by rerouting the hunt in such a case, making it village win.
Cub hunts can't be blocked by the changeling.

Makes me also wish I had continue discussions with Wagonlitz. Volunteering information that Dedonus was cleared might have backfired, but it would've at least guaranteed Wagon had not been on him. Just more wishful thinking looking back on how to save the game, I suppose.
That'd have been super helpful, since then I'd have gunned for Chieron. He was my second most likely target (and the only other person it could be, really.)
Aedan clearly wasn't it, you were changeling, Agatha coiudn't be it unless Graymarch was even more ruthless than aedan. And Sleepy had offered up Capage and IG on a hunt list the day we got in touch, so no way thy were the last wolf.
That only left Chieron and Deo. Chieron, Sleepy had claimed, was sorc blocked, so that left me with Deo. I was aware Sleepy migt have told a lie there, but I had to tak a decision and stick to it if I was to have any chance.

since he told wagonlitz that, it meant Wagon knew he had a free hunt on me.
You're forgetting how we scannd avernite. Grimlock was scanning you, but got reroutd to Avernite. Hence I knew since day 1 that you couldn't be protected again.
I wouldn't have hunted you , though, as I'd have considered that immoral with alxeu offering to protect me. Though, had it went on for another day due to your scheme to lynch wombat then I did plan on hunting you.
My hunt actually was on Chieron for last night.

the PMs which were mostly mine I guess
I never posted any PMs which weren't made by you or me. I.e. if it wasn't my PM, then it was yours.
And I tried removing anything which could implicate any other baddie. Sadly missed that part with Maw, to which I once again will apologise to Wombat for.

I think you played poorly as an unaligned baddie, as you shouldn't start handing wolf names over to the opposing pack if you're not committed either way. Note that you gave Wagonlitz the opportunity to out me, which he did, and you acknowledged aedan's case on the PMs which were mostly mine I guess (didn't pay full attention) leading to your own demise and the village seeing a path to victory. Had you only influenced hunts as e.g. a sorc in contact with both packs typically tries to do, all of that could've been avoided.
Are you forgetting that your cultist, Graymarch, literally told you about Arky being a wolf after scanning him?
Wombat never told us about you being a wolf from his scan. He just said you were a plain villager. He only told us after your revelation of knowing both Arky and I, one of us from a cultist scan.

I think Wombat played very honourably this game.
 

Team Wombat

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I didn't tell you sleepy was a villager; my exact words on the sleepy scan were: "my scan revealed nothing interesting." I don't really think lying is a great idea whenever possible and try not to do it even as a baddie.
 
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aedan777

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There's no chance of that, espceially not as I voted Sleepy at deadline. Had I sniped off Sleepy then perhaps, though I'd still doubt it.
It was a low chance, but it was the only way for the baddies to win without tying a villager with Deathbywombat. If they hunted you and one of us villagers, the village would've won the next day. Dedonus had his clairvoyant scan on Chieron which would've revealed him as a wolf, and Culann couldn't block him since he'd blocked Dedonus the night before. Even if Dedonus was the one hunted, I was basically set on Chieron and most likely would've directed the village to lynch him the next day.

That was by far my greatest concern that would lead to a wolf victory, them focusing on clearing out the village so that the village would have effectively no chance the next day. I didn't really consider you'd just stubbornly stay on Dedonus even though that move would literally only have an impact if you were wrong and so gave the other pack their shot to snipe to victory.
 

Chieron

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Cub hunts can't be blocked by the changeling.
The rule actually states that "Defenders who attempt to stop/divert the Yaks when they carry out a revenge hunt are killed instead of the Yaks' targets." which seems to indicate that alxeu would've died alone (basically redirected the hunt to himself).
Are you forgetting that your cultist, Graymarch, literally told you about Arky being a wolf after scanning him?
Graymarch told me (his contact), and I shared it with the others. Maybe he should not have done it, who knows.
But he would've died with that knowledge?

I wouldn't say you necessarily were the weaker side.
You actually had useful traits. You had a clairvoyance and the cub. Perhaps more, in case you had some.
We were the weaker side numerically. Clairvoyance was used on you, I had no traits. A cub must also die similarly to a brutal to be useful. It is very similar overall.
The day the truce was up, you could've hunted sleepy, leaving me stranded alone. Given that there was still parity, you and the unaligned baddies could've just lynched me and sailed to victory. I hoped that Aedan would use his power on Arkasas, but there was no guarantee.
Because you had the hunt on the next day and the numerical advantage, even with more obvious packmates, there was no real other choice. Your side had even called off the truce before the update.
 

Wagonlitz

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I didn't really consider you'd just stubbornly stay on Dedonus even though that move would literally only have an impact if you were wrong and so gave the other pack their shot to snipe to victory.
I thoguth Deo was the wolf.
 

Wagonlitz

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Graymarch told me (his contact), and I shared it with the others. Maybe he should not have done it, who knows.
He shouldn't have told you. Rather he should have contacted Arky instead, like how Wombat contacted Sleepy.
As an unalligned baddie you want the wolves to remain alive as long as possible, espceally if all packs know about you and you hence are safe.

But he would've died with that knowledge?
He should have been put in touch with Wombat. There's nothing to lose from the unalligned baddies knowing each other.

A cub must also die similarly to a brutal to be useful. It is very similar overall.
A cub gives two unblockable hunts, though. Whihc is better than a brutal kill, espceally as tehy can be postponed for when you need them later.
Clairvoyance is way better than having two cultists, as cultists can switch allegiance. Plus, you had a sorc, so you still had two unalligned baddies.

I do think you had the btter starting setup, albeit not much better. But it was better.

The day the truce was up, you could've hunted sleepy, leaving me stranded alone.
You broke the truce the night before, so you hunted the day it was broken.

Your side had even called off the truce before the update.
Nope. We didn't do that.
Please show me where we did that, because to my awareness that never was done.
 

R.Graymarch

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Graymarch told me (his contact), and I shared it with the others. Maybe he should not have done it, who knows.
But he would've died with that knowledge?
on that point specifically. I don't know what is the "right" answer to this but I did too many LARPs in my life to avoid dying with an information that could be useful to my groupe. So I usually share it as soon as possible, in case I die. Granted, as a cultist, I could go with either pack but it made more sense for me to share this with Chieron rather than lying to him. I did not share with Arkasas because Chieron told me about the possibility of a changeling/trickster. I was considering telling it maybe later but then, there was another contact between the packs with another cultist, + the sorceror. Then I was lynched.

Crossposted
He shouldn't have told you. Rather he should have contacted Arky instead, like how Wombat contacted Sleepy.
As an unalligned baddie you want the wolves to remain alive as long as possible, espceally if all packs know about you and you hence are safe.
It means lying to Chieron. I avoid doing that (I'm no good at it and the backlash can be hard)
 

aedan777

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I hoped that Aedan would use his power on Arkasas, but there was no guarantee.
I've seen this mentioned before, but how'd you know I had a shot? I never told anyone, and I'd thought the baddies hadn't scanned me because Alxeu redirected it to Avernite.
I thoguth Deo was the wolf.
Aside from the fact he wasn't, the village clearly wasn't lynching him, I'd directed them to lynch Deathbywombat instead. Stubbornly sitting on Dedonus was either worthless if you were right, or giving the other pack an easy path to victory if you were wrong.
 

CaptainGrimlock

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I didn't tell you sleepy was a villager; my exact words on the sleepy scan were: "my scan revealed nothing interesting." I don't really think lying is a great idea whenever possible and try not to do it even as a baddie.
Same here. My first lie this game was claiming consumptive. (Or maybe the reasons I voted for villagers, but why would I tell you I’m voting for someone because they’re a villager.)
 

Chieron

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Nope. We didn't do that.
Please show me where we did that, because to my awareness that never was done.
I only got this from Sleepy - half an hour after the deadline, before the update:
The others are realising that it's baddie majority and were turning on one another as of tomorrow
I interpreted this as your side calling it off.
And as Sleepy previously stated, hunting unknown wolves would've never been part of the truce. It was a somewhat dirty move, though. Until the message from Sleepy came that you would've called it off regardless, I did not feel as bad about the first strike. (which was not a guaranteed hit either way). With such a truce, the hunts would need to be mediated by the unaligned ones, without sending out options to the other side. As you said, with Capage and Claude being on one of our lists, you could eliminate them from the suspected pack members. Hunting is easier, when you only have to avoid your own packmates..


Regarding the Clairvoyance - I thought that you also had one of those, but I was mistaken.

Graymarch could've called up Arkasas on his own, sure. Hadn't it been for Wombat, he would've done it. And he could've withheld information from us, but that might've been a beginner's mistake. I steered him away from the contact by telling about the changeling (given that arkasas likely would also be a scan magnet, that was not that unlikely)

I've seen this mentioned before, but how'd you know I had a shot? I never told anyone, and I'd thought the baddies hadn't scanned me because Alxeu redirected it to Avernite.
@aedan777 one of the cultists had scanned you on night 2, so we knew that you had the SoS.
Aside from the fact he wasn't, the village clearly wasn't lynching him, I'd directed them to lynch Deathbywombat instead. Stubbornly sitting on Dedonus was either worthless if you were right, or giving the other pack an easy path to victory if you were wrong.
I was so glad when Wagonlitz finally voted properly.. Grimlock's nudging felt too obvious, though.
 

Witch Agatha

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Aside from the fact he wasn't, the village clearly wasn't lynching him, I'd directed them to lynch Deathbywombat instead. Stubbornly sitting on Dedonus was either worthless if you were right, or giving the other pack an easy path to victory if you were wrong.
This is why I never said I had scanned Dedonus. I didn't think the baddies would go for a tie.