Wtf Wiz

[Tearlach]

Since this makes it impossible for the AI to hire holy orders, is not the simple solution to never hire holy orders yourself? Sure, it is not a perfect solution. But while we wait for a bug fix it is atleast a stopgap fix.

Also, everyone likes it when others are civil, noone likes being insulted. If you wish for people to rally around your cause, better to use honey than vinegar.

 

[Sigebryht]

I'm guessing AI trying to calculate its monthly budget but didn't know holy orders have free upkeep when defending against infidels and disbands most expensive mercenary to prevent bankruptcy. Then hire a holy order again because correctly calculates holy order's upkeep. After hiring it, incorrectly calculates its monthly budget again and loop begins.

I also thought this was it and gave the AI gold but it did not change anything, they disband holy orders and hire mercenaries or build a new holding/building instead, still lose war.

Since this makes it impossible for the AI to hire holy orders, is not the simple solution to never hire holy orders yourself? Sure, it is not a perfect solution. But while we wait for a bug fix it is atleast a stopgap fix.

No, since the lack of challenge is not the main problem, the main problem is that next to all wars have some inter-religion aspect to them and that is petty crappy right now because of how holy orders are tied down with vassalage or simply inactive because they cannot be hired. Most players enjoy watching what is going on the map, and when they see that whole dynamic is changed because of this the play value of the game drops drastically. Holy orders are the war-winners, the battle-deciders. You have like 2000 troops, but BANG you pop the Teutonic order and defeat a much larger enemy.

Also, everyone likes it when others are civil, noone likes being insulted. If you wish for people to rally around your cause, better to use honey than vinegar.

You just made your first post on this forum, came out of lurking, to post right here, you tell me does vinegar attract you

 

[Zhatelier]

You just made your first post on this forum, came out of lurking, to post right here, you tell me does vinegar attract you

Sure you'll get a reaction with vinegar more likely than with honey, but how often is it positive?
I've been reading this thread and seriously wondering how badly people can shoot at their own leg... I agree that this bug is indeed a serious bug in terms of balancing the game, but it is not a serious game-breaking bug. I do agree that this bug should have been fixed a long time ago and am not defending PDS for not fixing it. But as said before, if PDS doesn't make new DLCs, there won't be enough money to fix the bugs (and that bug fixing and DLC making is not taking it's resources from entirely the same pool). It is a shame of course that bugs such as this have been around for so long.

But consider this issue at hand as a knife, rather sharp one at first, but all this (semi)personal name-calling on both sides is like striking the given knife to a wall, repeatedly, blunting it to useless. The topic is now 7 pages long, with a name that hints that this is an assault against a single PDS worker, whether or not it is only Wiz's doing or not, gives a slightly misleading picture (as a friendly advice to the OP, changing the name of the topic to include in some form the holy orders might help the cause a lot). Now the blunt knife won't be achieving us much, or you disagree?

 

[solamyas]

I also thought this was it and gave the AI gold but it did not change anything, they disband holy orders and hire mercenaries or build a new holding/building instead, still lose war.

You increased AI's gold reserve but didn't change its monthly budget.

Start as a Greak/Armenian Doux/Count and hire all mercenaries to prevent Jerusalem from using mercenary.

Use this cheats within Kingdom of Jerusalem: change every rulers', their spouses', regents' and stewards' stewardship skill to highest possible number; change every rulers', their spouses', regents' and marshals' martial skill to 0; boost all liege/vassal releation; remove every negative county modifier; match counties' and owner's culture and religion; spawn trade post; upgrade all economic buildings (Church Village, Harbour, City Guild Hall, Castle Town etc.); downgrade most military buildings; increase Castle Infrastructure, Town Infrastructure, Church Infrastructure technologies; give piety to King of Jerusalem.

I don't know cheat codes otherwise I would test it myself.

 

[Ambigore]

Okay, this would explain why I managed conquer northern Muslim Spain so easily as Burgundy. I remember seeing an AI Muslim doomstack heading straight towards Burgundy, then stop and retreat, before marching forward again, and then retreating etc. I guess the Muslims had a holy order that was being repeatedly hired and disbanded, and the doomstack was trying to join up whenever the holy order was re-hired.

So yeah, the OP is correct. This issue fundamentally affects the game.

 

[makif130289]

Okay, this would explain why I managed conquer northern Muslim Spain so easily as Burgundy. I remember seeing an AI Muslim doomstack heading straight towards Burgundy, then stop and retreat, before marching forward again, and then retreating etc. I guess the Muslims had a holy order that was being repeatedly hired and disbanded, and the doomstack was trying to join up whenever the holy order was re-hired.

So yeah, the OP is correct. This issue fundamentally affects the game.

I just observed the same with my ongoing game as Kingdom of Leon. I wonder how this bug managed to evade attention of players for so long.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I'm guessing AI trying to calculate its monthly budget but didn't know holy orders have free upkeep when defending against infidels and disbands most expensive mercenary to prevent bankruptcy. Then hire a holy order again because correctly calculates holy order's upkeep. After hiring it, incorrectly calculates its monthly budget again and loop begins.

That's an interesting possibility. I hope someone from the dev team looks at this as it seems at least plausible...

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Well then, I think we have safely established that in the last 6 months Paradox has actively introduced more major bugs than they've fixed, over multiple patches. Does anyone know if they've actually managed to fix any significant bugs at all in this time, or are they mostly focused on breaking stuff these days? Yet they've found time to develop and release four paid DLC. Incredible.

As I've said before elsewhere, things would really be better if PD would just stop patching their games. The endless tweaking of features winds up breaking as much as it "fixes," when clearly PD would much rather just make more half-assed DLC for us to buy.

I'd say they've fixed more than they've created. Look at the cumulative patch notes for the period. Quite a lot of "major" bugs go by unnoticed, except by the few people unlucky enough to encounter them. For example, without this thread I wouldn't have noticed the AI messing about hiring and firing Holy Orders simply because I don't monitor the piety of my neighbours (and so wouldn't see it bomb), and I don't sit and watch the Holy Order (or mercenary) pages of the interface to see them being hired repeatedly by the same country. Similarly if you haven't been hit with inheriting a revolt title or haven't happened to see someone with such a title when they shouldn't have it, you wouldn't notice it.

 

[Sigebryht]

You really blew it this time, Wiz.

It seems this is not the only game things are not running smoothly with his AI codes.

You increased AI's gold reserve but didn't change its monthly budget.

Start as a Greak/Armenian Doux/Count and hire all mercenaries to prevent Jerusalem from using mercenary.

Use this cheats within Kingdom of Jerusalem: change every rulers', their spouses', regents' and stewards' stewardship skill to highest possible number; change every rulers', their spouses', regents' and marshals' martial skill to 0; boost all liege/vassal releation; remove every negative county modifier; match counties' and owner's culture and religion; spawn trade post; upgrade all economic buildings (Church Village, Harbour, City Guild Hall, Castle Town etc.); downgrade most military buildings; increase Castle Infrastructure, Town Infrastructure, Church Infrastructure technologies; give piety to King of Jerusalem.

I don't know cheat codes otherwise I would test it myself.

You do not need to change so many things, it is likely enough to make 1 holy order cheapest and smallest so that it is obvious that money calculation is not the problem.

 

[Titan79]

You do not need to change so many things, it is likely enough to make 1 holy order cheapest and smallest so that it is obvious that money calculation is not the problem.

That could indeed be a good solution.

Also, making Holy Orders cheaper and smaller (like, say, 1/2 compared to what they are now) but 2 times stronger would be IMHO a bit more historical.

 

[Sigebryht]

That could indeed be a good solution.

Also, making Holy Orders cheaper and smaller (like, say, 1/2 compared to what they are now) but 2 times stronger would be IMHO a bit more historical.

I do not think that is a sound idea, not because it was not historically like that, but because many AI calculations are based on size, not on quality.

 

[Titan79]

I do not think that is a sound idea, not because it was not historically like that, but because many AI calculations are based on size, not on quality.

So, it wouldn't be possible to add e.g. a 2x strength modifier to all Templar/Hospitaller/ecc. troops (a sort of "elite units" bonus)?

I'm genuinely asking that, as I'm totally unaware if this could be technically doable (whether by a mod or, if not, by a dev intervention on the hard code).

The hardcoded part which would need to be adjusted would then (eventually) be the one which refers to AI calculations based on size - although I think it could also be left how it is now...

 

[Wizzington]

I'm not on CK2 but I'll make some time and have a look at it next week.

 

[Raeheart_]

I'm not on CK2 but I'll make some time and have a look at it next week.

I'm impressed. Making time to do someone else's job because someone on the internet complained. I take my hat off sir.

 

[Zolotaya]

I'm not on CK2 but I'll make some time and have a look at it next week.

Thanks. As always I look forward to your work.

 

[Sigebryht]

I'm not on CK2 but I'll make some time and have a look at it next week.

I am happy to hear that, and I do believe it will not be like the last time, thank you in advance.

2. AI disbands holy orders after hiring them, then hires new ones etc.
3. Alternatively, AI just doesn't hire them, including its own vassalised holy orders when defending against a religious enemy.

Some good AI feedback there, thank you. I will save this post for the next time I'm on CK2.

 

[frankatank109]

I'm not on CK2 but I'll make some time and have a look at it next week.

This is why Paradox will always be the best company for developing games.

 

[solamyas]

I am happy to hear that, and I do believe it will not be like the last time, thank you in advance.

Just stop this madness or buy another dictionary with basic words like "next" and "time" instead of not agreed meanings for rarely used words.

 

[makif130289]

I'm not on CK2 but I'll make some time and have a look at it next week.

Great! Please fix the mentioned issue as it is severely affecting gameplay in areas dominated by religious conflict.

 

[Calad]

Must be difficult for wiz to be the most loved and hated person at same time.