Wtf Wiz

[hferguson]

Can we please stop with the quote wars? God, there's nothing more boring for the rest of us. I don't even know what you people are talking about.

Which is a shame, because what we SHOULD be talking about is how everyone here paid real money for a game that Paradox subsequently broke with a game-changing bug, and then failed to fix for close to half a year. How is this at all controversial? To be honest, I forgot all about this bug after I stopped playing and naively assumed that PD would fix it in one of their endless patches. I have to hand it to the OP, as uncouth as he may be, for notifying me that PD has not, in fact, fixed my expensive, formerly favorite, game in the months since last I played.

 

[Calad]

So furious players here. I guess because of summer you have extra time? But ck2 needs more attention. It is a good game but some flaws make it way too easy or very difficult to lose.

 

[hferguson]

Indeed, like Holy Orders only working for the player.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Well, to address the bug, does anyone know what is causing it?

If not, how can you say, as has been said several times, that it is "easy" or "simple" to fix?

 

[hferguson]

Oh I don't think anyone is saying that it's necessarily "easy" or "simple" to fix, just that Paradox really ought to be trying a lot harder. I mean... this bug was first reported in December 2013. Paradox has since put out four different paid DLC, but haven't fixed the base game. A less charitable person might interpret that as borderline fraud.

For the record, ever since coming to know Paradox I have shook my head sadly at all those troubled souls ranting against Paradox for "broken" mechanics which were really nothing more than a difference of opinion. "Oh you," I'd say, "Paradox is just a small outfit and put out such great games and show such devotion to improving them!" But this issue really changes my perception of the company. Five months go by and a major bug isn't fixed while paid DLC continues to get cranked out for a game that doesn't work as intended? Wow.

 

[mjohnson85]

Oh I don't think anyone is saying that it's necessarily "easy" or "simple" to fix, just that Paradox really ought to be trying a lot harder. I mean... this bug was first reported in December 2013. Paradox has since put out four different paid DLC, but haven't fixed the base game. A less charitable person might interpret that as borderline fraud.

For the record, ever since coming to know Paradox I have shook my head sadly at all those troubled souls ranting against Paradox for "broken" mechanics which were really nothing more than a difference of opinion. "Oh you," I'd say, "Paradox is just a small outfit and put out such great games and show such devotion to improving them!" But this issue really changes my perception of the company. Five months go by and a major bug isn't fixed while paid DLC continues to get cranked out for a game that doesn't work as intended? Wow.

Because the same team of people devoted to bug fixing is the same team of people putting out the DLC? You assume a lot there. As has been said MULTIPLE times, bugs are fixed according to a PRIORITY SYSTEM. Just because someone thinks this should be the top priority does not mean it actually is. I don't understand why some of you just dont get it.

 

[solamyas]

Well, to address the bug, does anyone know what is causing it?

I'm guessing AI trying to calculate its monthly budget but didn't know holy orders have free upkeep when defending against infidels and disbands most expensive mercenary to prevent bankruptcy. Then hire a holy order again because correctly calculates holy order's upkeep. After hiring it, incorrectly calculates its monthly budget again and loop begins.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Oh I don't think anyone is saying that it's necessarily "easy" or "simple" to fix, just that Paradox really ought to be trying a lot harder. I mean... this bug was first reported in December 2013. Paradox has since put out four different paid DLC, but haven't fixed the base game. A less charitable person might interpret that as borderline fraud.

For the record, ever since coming to know Paradox I have shook my head sadly at all those troubled souls ranting against Paradox for "broken" mechanics which were really nothing more than a difference of opinion. "Oh you," I'd say, "Paradox is just a small outfit and put out such great games and show such devotion to improving them!" But this issue really changes my perception of the company. Five months go by and a major bug isn't fixed while paid DLC continues to get cranked out for a game that doesn't work as intended? Wow.

which would you like first?

This bug fixed, or temporary vassal titles?

Ultimately, this is a pretty minor bug that only affects small factions without allies who are bordered by strong hostile religions.

That's not to say that it's not something that needs fixing, but it comes under "AI/balance" rather than "core mechanics".

If you want to criticise Paradox, you should direct criticism to the lack of QA on RoI prior to general release.

 

[Chef Boyardee]

You really blew it this time, Wiz.

 

[unmerged(633385)]

I would like to congratulate OP for biggest overreaction to a relatively minor bug in this board's history. It's not an easy award to win, but OP has surely done so.

 

[EmperorTojo]

You really blew it this time, Wiz.

Just kidding, but really. Too large of a fuss was made about this I think.

 

[hferguson]

which would you like first?

This bug fixed, or temporary vassal titles?

Ultimately, this is a pretty minor bug that only affects small factions without allies who are bordered by strong hostile religions.

That's not to say that it's not something that needs fixing, but it comes under "AI/balance" rather than "core mechanics".

If you want to criticise Paradox, you should direct criticism to the lack of QA on RoI prior to general release.

I didn't even know "temporary vassal titles" was a thing. I did know that Holy Orders used to be an important part of crusading and holy wars in this game I paid $39.99 for. As in "Crusader" Kings, you know? I'm not saying I expect PD to fix bugs immediately. But five months?

 

[Darsara]

I'm guessing AI trying to calculate its monthly budget but didn't know holy orders have free upkeep when defending against infidels and disbands most expensive mercenary to prevent bankruptcy. Then hire a holy order again because correctly calculates holy order's upkeep. After hiring it, incorrectly calculates its monthly budget again and loop begins.

Sounds fairly likely to me.
And FYI for some people: this isn't gamebreaking. Gamebreaking is when the AI hiring mercenaries causes the game to crash, or causes wars to end, or the hired order to become the primary combatant and gain the spoils of the war or something. Maybe if, say, the Catholic orders could be hired by the AI but not any of the other religions orders giving a (now that more than just Catholics and Shia get them) unfair advantage.

A fairly major bug causing the AI to potentially fail in wars it could win: yes.
Gamebreaking: no.

 

[hferguson]

Game-changing?

 

[yezhanquan]

Soundbites aside, such bugs are indeed detrimental to the gaming experience.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

I didn't even know "temporary vassal titles" was a thing. I did know that Holy Orders used to be an important part of crusading and holy wars in this game I paid $39.99 for. As in "Crusader" Kings, you know? I'm not saying I expect PD to fix bugs immediately. But five months?

If you inherit a temporary revolt title, you become impossible to interact with, you can't be married, given or give titles, or be assassinated. The title will be passed down to all your descendants - making it impossible to get rid of - the same can happen to vassals.

That's a genuinely game-breaking bug.

Almost as serious is the bug which allows unlanded characters with titular titles to have vassals - if they are noble and they only have Bishop and Mayor vassals, their faction become impossible to interact with. This can screw up all sorts of things like special events (e.g. the Great Schism) and prevents de Jure shift as you can't control an entire territory.

Both of these bugs popped up in the last five months and both will be higher priority than an AI issue with Holy Orders, even though that does also need attention.

 

[Zolotaya]

For some reason the length of time that this bug is in existence is tripping up some. I think a better perspective is to consider the scope of the bug in question. I'll provide two examples to illustrate this important concept. The first is comparing the Holy Order issue with the newly introduced issues involved with inheriting a temporary title and the second is comparing the Holy Order issue to that of the possibility of vassalising an independent King and his entire kingdom by taking his demesne home duchy and leaving him as a count within that conquered duchy.

Sigurd illustrates the technical side of temporary titles in post 116, so I'll get to the distinction: The former creates a situation that is intertwined in the entire game and all systems/mechanics; the later is situational. Something that is situational is important to fix but it should not take precedence over something that is prevalent in multiple core mechanics and designed systems.

About the same time (6 months ago for this bug) that this Holy Order issue surfaced I found, reported and was able to get included on the Paradox bug-list a rather nasty bug that allows a player to vassalize an entire kingdom by conquering one key duchy. It is quite a nasty exploit found by myself and after further dlc and patch releases by others. This bug is very comparable to the Holy Order bug the OP is emotional about. Both of these bugs are situational - and both should be fixed. Which should take precedence over the other is something that is open to interpretation and not really important. I feel that this bug I discovered should be high on the list but I realize that it may not be fixed sooner than any bug discovered after it has been documented and included in the official Paradox list.

The amount of time a bug is in existence is really not important.

 

[hferguson]

Well then, I think we have safely established that in the last 6 months Paradox has actively introduced more major bugs than they've fixed, over multiple patches. Does anyone know if they've actually managed to fix any significant bugs at all in this time, or are they mostly focused on breaking stuff these days? Yet they've found time to develop and release four paid DLC. Incredible.

As I've said before elsewhere, things would really be better if PD would just stop patching their games. The endless tweaking of features winds up breaking as much as it "fixes," when clearly PD would much rather just make more half-assed DLC for us to buy.

 

[yezhanquan]

RoI was pretty half-assed, I agree. However, it was the only "expansion" DLC during the last 6 mths. I'm very cool with face/unit packs (nice to have, but I'll get them at my own time).

 

[unmerged(719176)]

AI suck at using holy orders anyhow, attritioning themselves to death, then whilst fighting two separate wars attempting to attack the army of people of their faith with smaller forces and the holy order whilst sending their actual army off against the heathens.