Wtf Wiz

[makif130289]

That's a pretty shitty bug, no doubt. Like I said above, I hope it does get resolved. If it's reported, then the only thing to do is wait, unfortunately.

OP may be too much furious with Paradox but his complaint is very legid and should be taken into account by Paradox. They said they reported that bug more than once and it is still around. When reports of serious bug were ignored for several months, it is no surprise that furious people will emerge. Look at EUIV forum, you should have seen rage there. Paradox should improve quality of its products and fellow forumites should not rush to defend Paradox and when serious bugs directly affecting gameplay is around.

 

[makif130289]

Ok, I didn't want to get involved in the actual debate here, but please provide a clear list of the all the people that have quit playing the game because of things like what you describe (and why they did so), and why they are the only rational, clear thinking people that play the game. You've just insulted everybody on this forum, and I would like a velar, codified list of reasons for it. No hyperbole, name calling, fanboy-labeling or likes.

What is this ? Is it okay to have bugs as long as it doesn't cause people to quit game ? What happened to quality of the products ? I am not insulted by OP, it is Paradox's job to fix the problem ( I am personally big fan of Wiz BTW because of CK2+ ). Why should i defend Paradox' mistakes/bad quality control because of furious OP.

 

[DerOstkonig]

What is this ? Is it okay to have bugs as long as it doesn't cause people to quit game ? What happened to quality of the products ? I am not insulted by OP, it is Paradox's job to fix the problem ( I am personally big fan of Wiz BTW because fo CK2+ ). Why should i defend Paradox' mistakes/bad quality control because of furious OP.

Eh he is just pointing out what the developers or the community managers would (and did in response to the upheaval in the EU IV forums): the only way to actually express complaints to them is to do so in a calm and organized post without invoking a giant flame war.

There are only like two to five people here to read the thousands of comments that pour in about this game, and if it is a disorganized and hateful rant, then you cannot expect the devs to listen.

 

[makif130289]

Eh he is just pointing out what the developers or the community managers would (and did in response to the upheaval in the EU IV forums): the only way to actually express complaints to them is to do so in a calm and organized post without invoking a giant flame war.

There are only like two to five people here to read the thousands of comments that pour in about this game, and if it is a disorganized and hateful rant, then you cannot expect the devs to listen.

Paradox then should greatly improve its quality control. People don't start flame wars because of their hatred towards certain devs. And in fact, sometimes being "rebel" produces results. Late Friday hotfix for EUIV is in my opinion direct result of that upheaval.

 

[Sigebryht]

What is this ? Is it okay to have bugs as long as it doesn't cause people to quit game ? What happened to quality of the products ? I am not insulted by OP, it is Paradox's job to fix the problem ( I am personally big fan of Wiz BTW because fo CK2+ ). Why should i defend Paradox' mistakes/bad quality control because of furious OP.

They got a bad vibe from me I guess, but I am not all that furious, I am mostly bewildered by staunch defense of Paradox and frustrated by the continuing ignoring of bugreports and because Noobieone was talking about this issue before I even officially came to the forum in 2014. He asked about it 2 times in 1 AMA-ish topic and got no response while his other questions were answered. That is what is fishy about this.

 

[DerOstkonig]

Paradox then should greatly improve its quality control. People don't start flame wars because of their hatred towards certain devs. And in fact, sometimes being "rebel" produces results. Late Friday hotfix for EUIV is in my opinion direct result of that upheaval.

It's really easy for the forum goers to command Paradox to improve their quality control and demand some kind of perfect utopian QA performance from them.

But unfortunately, those things cost money, and we are not accountants for Paradox, so none of us can know whether or not they can afford to do that.

Going by the evidence that even mega-transnational corporations like EA or other blockbuster studios like Bethesda cannot manage that kind of feat, I think it would be safe to assume they are doing the best they can.

Not that we are not entitled to some expectations as consumers, but we should at least have some respect for the devs who respect us enough to actually address our complaints.

And to respond to your last sentence- it is good to be vocal, but not to be insulting. Those "rebels" on the EUIV forums have only managed to muddy the waters that paradox must swim through to ascertain the opinion of the general population. The way you present your opinions is level-headed and concise, but the OP could just go on for pages with assumptions and assertions about how the rest of us feel, which just make it harder for Paradox to actually know how we feel. That is my point.

 

[Jia Xu]

Is his name Groovy, Groggy, or Groogy!? I swear I've seen all 3 in this thread

The god of death has many faces, many names.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

They are fanboys, look up the definition, that is what I have desciribed and named, no offense there.

You're using it as an insult. Sugarcoat all you want.

They are a source I trust, they include the meaning I used the word for, does your boss at work know how much time you are wasting nitpicking and being pedantic about offtopic bs just to try to provoke me into responding to you?

Considering half the time I work from home as my own boss, I'm pretty sure "wasting time" is okay by me. Nice underhanded way to threaten my employment and character.

Yeah, half a year is little time.

I don't know how old you are, but half a year is nothing to me by now. Sorry that it has been that long. I really am. I am quite directly on the same side as you, only opposite on the tone and perceived priority.

Because publishing is a business, and this just goes to show bad decision making, and figuring out which bugs to prioritize takes ...come on now.... youuuu know it... YES, a decision!

It's bad decision-making for CKII to allow a smaller company, wholly-independent of Paradox, to make their own game, and provide the means to publish it? You're drawing a false equivalency between two separate things and two separate companies.

There are dlc related issues being mentioned in current beta patch. So it seems that you are wrong, regardless of what you say you read.

Really?

And to what should my opinion exactly be changed?

Only the general asshattery and feigned insults and tone. I think you have a valid point with the bug. I do. I just don't see how alienating almost everyone here then faking righteousness is going to do a god-damned thing.

I think that this should have been resolved before making RoI.

You're not the only one, but DLC content sustains the development. There are a lot of arguments for and against that, but I like the new model compared to the old. If it was the old way, your issue might never get fixed.

Since now I expect next dlc to come up before they make a bugfix I have every reason to voice my complaints.

And I have every right to voice my dissension with the way you're handling it.

Their pattern of doing things does not put comfidence into them. And the fact that you might thing that I am a more demanding customer is not something I really care about.

If you didn't care, why would you go through the effort of putting everybody else down who doesn't agree with your conclusions?

 

[SBolshevik]

Yes, they who made games like this:
http://www.ign.com/games/gettysburg-armored-warfare/pc-102025
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/impire/
http://www.ign.com/games/war-of-the-vikings/pc-20014258

Your evidence is lacking, considering Paradox (or rather, PDS) did not make those games, but Paradox (PI) published them. You could have at least found evidence in the form of old PDS games.

 

[Sigebryht]

It's bad decision-making for CKII to allow a smaller company, wholly-independent of Paradox, to make their own game, and provide the means to publish it? You're drawing a false equivalency between two separate things and two separate companies.

Well yes, because for associating yourself as a gaming company with games like these is definitely a bad decision. All publishers must make good business decisions or they go broke.
Their bad decision making is influencing things like this and other bad quality assessment and similar things. In these conditions it is a job of the community to tell them where they want the game to go.

Really?

That link is not about CK2, I am pretty sure that with their large DLCs like ToG SoI all coding is done by standard devs, a 4 man continuing team and 4-5 other people who work on some other projects in the meantime.

Only the general asshattery and feigned insults and tone. I think you have a valid point with the bug. I do. I just don't see how alienating almost everyone here then faking righteousness is going to do a god-damned thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1s00ogoPvE&feature=youtu.be&t=15m16s

And maybe my tone is a bit harsh for some to handle but it reflects the fanboyism expressed by not only on this thread but also many other, and it is also fun for others to read, most people will see this thread, know what it is about and just not visit again, but if the discussion is entertaining enough they will come again and it will increase the likeliness of devs seeing and reacting to it, and the thread staying more on front page and receiving more attention from the community. I also enjoy the congrats on a fun thread

You're not the only one, but DLC content sustains the development. There are a lot of arguments for and against that, but I like the new model compared to the old. If it was the old way, your issue might never get fixed.

I know but I do not think they should move on with DLC and rush it when neither it or the game beforehand are ready, that is the bad decisionmaking that has lead to this.

And I have every right to voice my dissension with the way you're handling it.

That you do, but I think many are acting umbrageous, I shall see how things proceed.

 

[Darsara]

What is this ? Is it okay to have bugs as long as it doesn't cause people to quit game ? What happened to quality of the products ? I am not insulted by OP, it is Paradox's job to fix the problem ( I am personally big fan of Wiz BTW because of CK2+ ). Why should i defend Paradox' mistakes/bad quality control because of furious OP.

Because he basically said that we are all irrational, senseless individuals because we haven't quit playing the game, and that the people that quit are the only rational, sensible people who have played this game/visited this forum. I wanted to know why he held this opinion. THAT was the focus of MY post, nothing about Paradox and bugs like YOU focused on.

And if you notice, I had agreed that this bug must exist, and that it does cause issues in an earlier post in this thread. I never said that Paradox was some golden child that never makes mistakes.

 

[Sigebryht]

Because he basically said that we are all irrational, senseless individuals because we haven't quit playing the game, and that the people that quit are the only rational, sensible people who have played this game/visited this forum. I wanted to know why he held this opinion. THAT was the focus of MY post, nothing about Paradox and bugs like YOU focused on.

And if you notice, I had agreed that this bug must exist, and that it does cause issues in an earlier post in this thread. I never said that Paradox was some golden child that never makes mistakes.

I did not say that, but if you got that impression you are wrong, I merely wanted to convey that there are many fanboys here because many people have left the forum and many more have stopped playing the game which has switched the balance in favor of hard core fanboys who are immune to critical thinking so they stay even though the game is far less playable then on patch 1.11.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

Well yes, because for associating yourself as a gaming company with games like these is definitely a bad decision. All publishers must make good business decisions or they go broke.
Their bad decision making is influencing things like this and other bad quality assessment and similar things. In these conditions it is a job of the community to tell them where they want the game to go.

A publisher must have a game that will sell to be successful. This much is true. But PI is not directly involved in any of those companies, and PDS handles the actual game development. You're still conflating a bunch of separate entities.

That link is not about CK2, I am pretty sure that with their large DLCs like ToG SoI all coding is done by standard devs, a 4 man continuing team and 4-5 other people who work on some other projects in the meantime.

That's a link in a different subreddit, yes. It does come from the DLC manager for Paradox, and it's definitely referenced as the same situation for PDS in the actual subreddit and here in the forums, were you to look for it hard enough. The team itself is very small, yes. That definitely adding to the problem because of limited resources. As I've said before: Technical issues (i.e. the memory issue) are of higher priority than design or gameplay bugs.

And maybe my tone is a bit harsh for some to handle but it reflects the fanboyism expressed by not only on this thread but also many other, and it is also fun for others to read, most people will see this thread, know what it is about and just not visit again, but if the discussion is entertaining enough they will come again and it will increase the likeliness of devs seeing and reacting to it, and the thread staying more on front page and receiving more attention from the community. I also enjoy the congrats on a fun thread

It's not that it's hard to handle, only unnecessary and rude and toxic to the forum culture which used to be less vitriolic and less entitled.

I know but I do not think they should move on with DLC and rush it when neither it or the game beforehand are ready, that is the bad decisionmaking that has lead to this.

It's a common sentiment to work on the base game before moving on to DLC, but the DLC is what sustains that development throughout. If no DLC gets made, there is no money and no more work. And, no level of work is going to make the game perfect for everyone. If the devs attempted to cater to every taste; Nothing would get done. You can call it bad decision-making if you want. I disagree.

That you do, but I think many are acting umbrageous, I shall see how things proceed.

I can lay out a likely roadmap:

More of the same: Thread locked.

or​

Nothing: Thread disappears unless someone necros it.

Devs likely to make this a priority, all things considered: 0

I can admire the attempt to bring more light to the issue, but this is one thread of hundreds of active ones, and hundreds of bugs, and it does not make the game completely unplayable for everyone. If you just wait, it will likely get fixed.

 

[Sigebryht]

A publisher must have a game that will sell to be successful. This much is true. But PI is not directly involved in any of those companies, and PDS handles the actual game development. You're still conflating a bunch of separate entities.

Publishing a game for someone else is not free either from financial or from marketing perspective.
That is not my problem, that is the problem of their management and marketing

That's a link in a different subreddit, yes. It does come from the DLC manager for Paradox, and it's definitely referenced as the same situation for PDS in the actual subreddit and here in the forums, were you to look for it hard enough. The team itself is very small, yes. That definitely adding to the problem because of limited resources. As I've said before: Technical issues (i.e. the memory issue) are of higher priority than design or gameplay bugs.

They approach their games differently, some games have fan made DLC, some have outsourced DLC, but CK2 is, with regards to big DLC dev made, I would like to see a proof of otherwise, but since I see dlc stuff being bugfixed in this and other patches that you claim are done by other people and not general staff, you must be wrong.

It's not that it's hard to handle, only unnecessary and rude and toxic to the forum culture which used to be less vitriolic and less entitled.

It seems to be, but keep in mind that criticism, no matter how direct is necessary, otherwise everything stops and stagnation begins.

It's a common sentiment to work on the base game before moving on to DLC, but the DLC is what sustains that development throughout. If no DLC gets made, there is no money and no more work. And, no level of work is going to make the game perfect for everyone. If the devs attempted to cater to every taste; Nothing would get done. You can call it bad decision-making if you want. I disagree.

From a purely financial position, and theoretically it seems so. But my, pretty large multiplayer group started disbanding with this bug, and it completely turned to other games with the bugfest that was RoI and the disappointment that was the continuing ignoring of other issues. Do not let yourself be led by what you see on this forum, it is not representative, as I said it is a small, vocal minority of very loyal fans who tolerate a lot. Most people are not that dedicated and once they lose interest in a game they go onto something else and do not come back. Especially not to buy DLC which they can pirate extremely easily.

I can admire the attempt to bring more light to the issue, but this is one thread of hundreds of active ones, and hundreds of bugs, and it does not make the game completely unplayable for everyone. If you just wait, it will likely get fixed.

Waiting has failed.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

Publishing a game for someone else is not free either from financial or from marketing perspective.
That is not my problem, that is the problem of their management and marketing

Not free, true. But it's not indicative of a larger issue and not related to CKII.

They approach their games differently, some games have fan made DLC, some have outsourced DLC, but CK2 is, with regards to big DLC dev made, I would like to see a proof of otherwise, but since I see dlc stuff being bugfixed in this and other patches that you claim are done by other people and not general staff, you must be wrong.

I'm not saying devs don't make DLC, only that the organization is not monolithic and that the pool of resources is not shared 100%. And, several things for the DLC are not done by PDS employees. The art, for instance.

It seems to be, but keep in mind that criticism, no matter how direct is necessary, otherwise everything stops and stagnation begins.

It doesn't seem to be: It is. I get that you're pretty pissed. I know I would be. But you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And being all aggressive just lessens the chance that anyone takes you seriously. If you're seriously worried about fanboy response, why cater to the exact type of thing they like to fight?

From a purely financial position, and theoretically it seems so. But my, pretty large multiplayer group started disbanding with this bug, and it completely turned to other games with the bugfest that was RoI and the disappointment that was the continuing ignoring of other issues. Do not let yourself be led by what you see on this forum, it is not representative, as I said it is a small, vocal minority of very loyal fans who tolerate a lot. Most people are not that dedicated and once they lose interest in a game they go onto something else and do not come back. Especially not to buy DLC which they can pirate extremely easily.

Let myself be led by what I see on this forum? This isn't the only forum I'm part of. Been a niche gameplayer for a long while now. People may lose interest. That much is true. It sucks that they seemed to bounce after RoI. But once it gets fixed to your liking, are they really not going to come back to play with you?

Waiting has failed.

And so has this. If everything that can be done by us is done, there is no other option. Or, if this way is an option that you think is valid, you could construct the argument much more level-headed. I know you're capable of it. I've seen you post in other threads rather constructively. I just don't know what led you to think this was the place to poison with aggression.

 

[DerOstkonig]

This thread has become a simulation of the Western Front in 1917 represented in Messageboard format.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

This thread has become a simulation of the Western Front in 1917 represented in Messageboard format.

Which country am I?

 

[DerOstkonig]

Which country am I?

France.

You've got the diplomatic seniority.

 

[Sigebryht]

Not free, true. But it's not indicative of a larger issue and not related to CKII.

Sure it is, the decision makers and the company culture is the same.

I'm not saying devs don't make DLC, only that the organization is not monolithic and that the pool of resources is not shared 100%. And, several things for the DLC are not done by PDS employees. The art, for instance.

Indeed, but Wiz works on the AI for this and EU, so we can kinda narrow it down. You did not see almost any changed in the AI prior to 2.0 and in that patch and every one after it there are huge number of AI changes.

It doesn't seem to be: It is. I get that you're pretty pissed. I know I would be. But you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And being all aggressive just lessens the chance that anyone takes you seriously. If you're seriously worried about fanboy response, why cater to the exact type of thing they like to fight?

Because I believe that human being can be persuaded by logic spiced up by some humor and other vaguely related stuff Besides, seriousness is never high on my priority list, I like to mix stuff up, that is why you have random tv stuff besides detailed argument involving grammar, semantics, programming and other "serious" things.

People may lose interest. That much is true. It sucks that they seemed to bounce after RoI. But once it gets fixed to your liking, are they really not going to come back to play with you?

They are not my close friends or work colleagues, I know 1 of them, and my influence on them is indirect and questionable.

And so has this. If everything that can be done by us is done, there is no other option. Or, if this way is an option that you think is valid, you could construct the argument much more level-headed. I know you're capable of it. I've seen you post in other threads rather constructively. I just don't know what led you to think this was the place to poison with aggression.

This has not failed, not by a longshot. I have created discussion, I have opened eyes of many people who obviously did not know about this bug, and I can be pretty sure that someone from the staff has read this and that more will read it.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

That is because your "playstyle" is shallow and pedantic indeed.

Sigebryht.
Let's be honest here. You're being deliberately rude and offensive.

You're using "fanboy" as an insult, whether you think that's what you're doing or not.

I comment that I can't confirm whether the problem with the Holy Orders is happening in my games because I rarely look at what they're doing, and you call my playstyle, and by extension me, shallow and pedantic. I'm fairly solidly in an area where I don't need to hire them, and my neighbours aren't using them on me, as we're mostly the same religion, and the others haven't reformed their Pagan religions, and so don't have Holy Orders yet. Hence I don't generally look at the tab for them. Bear in mind, I wasn't denying it exists and is a problem, just that I haven't seen it. It might explain a couple of oddities I'd noted in passing, but put down to no-one being able to hire the (currently landless and unable to intervene on their own) Catholic orders.
Of course, not looking at an interface panel that I don't need at the time is shallow and pedantic...

The obvious logic line of tought that a reasonable non-fanboy person should come to is that the AI does not have the money to spend on mercenaries and that next to free holy orders have uncomparable advantages to use. Besides that just gives the AI a stupid disadvantage, but then again I would not be surprised that with your handling of logic having an unfair advantage of holy orders is the only way you can get anywhere in this game.

Again with the fanboy insult.
The AI seems to have plenty of money to spend on things, or at least it does when I banish people or inherit all their stuff.

Further, and I will repeat, I rarely if ever use Holy Orders at all. Most of my interactions are with same faith groups, or else Holy Orders are unavailable for me.
And yes, you do have a bug if this problem is happening. Just because a bug is easy to identify does not mean it is easy to trace or fix though. Even more so if it was previously fixed and a similar bug has arisen due to a fix elsewhere.

Wow, if you think that crusader states (crusader with small c my dear, Englishman) failed a few years after they won and not 200 years I will personally find you a elementary level history tutor and a lollipop.

Depends on the state in question. The famous ones lasted a long time, but ones such as the Duchy_of_Philippopolis lasted only a few years. Others were effectively subsumed into the long lived ones.

Incidentally, whilst you're (incorrectly) criticising grammar, "crusader with small c my dear, Englishman" shouldn't really have the comma. Englishman should probably be lowercase as well. Wikipedia (albeit a weak source) agrees with my usage, and I would suggest that the capital on "Crusader" is probably optional...

Yeeees, they should not be used by just anyone, their AI liege included

Now now... "Not just by anyone" has an obvious meaning. They are meant to only be used by themselves, and their liege when vassalised. (Yes, vassalised, with an s - since I'm writing in English, not American English. Similarly colour, honour, and favour have a u in them.)

Well actually, that is different than hireable military orders which can be hired and appear on the spot, was that really something that did not cross you

Did I misinterpret something here? I thought you meant the Holy Orders weren't making it to the battlefield in time, the same as any other mercenary, who would appear in your capital and then have to travel.

Yeah, so they should fix old bugs, related to CORE GAME instead of making new, buggy changes and "features" that need further fixes or exclude low-end computers from running the game. You see, we agree



That shows you that their attention is to things that are not really either fundamental to VANILLA or objectively very detrimental to how the game goes.

Again, GUI interface is a different team to the team that do the main coding. Something that is a quick fix there is not taking time away from resolving important issues in the code, the same as rebalancing the colours of the various counties, duchies, kingdoms, and empires would take nothing from coding.

My favorite part is when you lie in order to look smart and in process look fatuous. I did not correct anyone incorrectly, it is crusader state and not Crusader state and vassalized and not vassalised there is nothing else I corrected. You disagree?

I disagree. I'm willing to allow a difference of style on crusader state versus Crusader state. Vassalised is spelled with an s in British English though, and as I write in British English that's what you get. I've no objections to you using American English and don't try to correct you or claim you are somehow inferior or stupid by pointing out that you use a different style guide to me.

Fanboy is not name calling it is a factual description of a proven behavior and logical fallacies.

You are intending it to be insulting, so it is name calling. It has nothing in this case to do with a proven behaviour or any logical fallacy. What several of us have said is that what you are seeing appears to be a bug. It has been identified, but other bugs are being given priority to be resolved first. This may be because they are easier to trace and identify the causes. It may be because they are actually preventing people from playing at all. It may be because (like a localisation bug) they are trivial to fix.

A logical fallacy would be something like "Person A hasn't seen the problem, but admits it could be there, they just haven't looked - therefore - Person A is being pedantic", or "Person B disagrees with me about the scale of the problem and what priority it should be given, therefore they're a fanboy".

The first draws a conclusion without there being anything to draw from, and the second is textbook ad hominem.

No, it effects all, no matter whether they admit it or not. And I also have ran this game on 32 bit computer and had no problems with crashing so it is certainly not even 22% and when did ever 100% (core game) become less than 22% (32 bit).

Some 32 bit systems are having problems. Just because you have successfully run it on 32 bit doesn't mean everyone on 32 bit can do so.

Not being able to play at all is certainly more serious than "I can play but this feature doesn't work correctly all the time for the AI". Now, both need to be fixed, but if I were affected by the 32 bit problem, I'd want that fixed first.

Pedantic means unimaginative.

Um.

I hate to be pedantic here, but that's not a definition I'm familiar with.
"Obsessed with trivia" yes, "Obsessed by pointless, meaningless detail" yes, "Overly concerned with correctness" yes, but "unimaginative"? Not one I'm familiar with. Of course, I don't have a complete multi-volume dictionary to hand, so I'm only seeing the more common usages.

Exactly my point, since this issue affects all factions and religions and time periods in game, and since this issue is not dependent on the type of computer or dlc that anyone has it is of primary priority.

No. Fixing the game for people who can't play at all is of primary priority.