WTF My entire navy got wrecked easily?

[I had a bad name 99]

The light gun hit easiser. The medium gun shoot enemy battle line first. Their strong is armor piericing but the DD don't have any armor.

The CA has the advantage of +40% hit chance if 100% screened, and they can shoot first. But they will get concentrated fire from all enemy capitals and planes.

More From Diary:
When it comes to regular combat we wanted to help out carriers and capital ships a bit and we felt the more realistic way of doing that was to give them a time at the start of the combat when they are the only ones active. Carriers and aircraft are active straight away. Some ticks later capital ships and subs get to fire and last screens. This gives a bit of a boost to those bigger ships and represents their longer ranged weapons better.

I would assume the speed of screens can help them dodge the longer-range but slower rounds. That's why light guns are better in that regards. Especially if you are fighting large amount of DD and LC, taking down a few from afar is not going to help much.

 

[I had a bad name 99]

As USN, I'll toss in my 2 cents worth ... I use the ORIGINAL MtG screening rules; i.e. 1 capital/cargo : 4+screens, (I've got the slots to build large) .
I consider 'early' and '36 DDs are for convoy duties, and try to space them about a week apart {4 x 15 SYs = 60 SYs}, until the first '40 DDs can be built (and fully equipped), switching 3 Lines to the newer Fleet DDs .

Statehood for Alaska, Hawaii, and Porto Rico, for extra slots; and we get to CLs (2 months) and CAs (3 months) to build ... [pay attention to rushing Tools 1,2,3, and Construction 1,2,3 !!]

SSs need a steady diet of 5 SYs;
along with Cargos which I use these slots as slopover slots for larger group builds (CLs, CAs, CVs) .

CVs {we'll bring AIR to YOU !} are where USN shines; damn expensive, killer Fleet centerpieces; I like 4-6 CAs and 1 BB to screen a CV, and 32+ small fry [CLs, DDs] to 'safely' wander around as a SINGLE CV TF ... a 4 CV Deathstack would weigh in at 224+ ships ! ...

USN also has a puppet, the Phillipines, which can be quite EFFECTIVE when properly abused :
1] Mods in use- Resource Factories, Improved Dockyard Limit ;
2] Raising local troops for battling Dockyards, Ports, and RFactories (chrome, rubber, steel, aluminum) for autonomy score to stay within 'Integrated Puppet' status as long as possible .
Eventually an 800+ ship USN is possible using all of the coastal states .

What're SS and SY?

 

[porta80]

What're SS and SY?

Submarines and Shipyards I would guess.

 

[I had a bad name 99]

Okay, from the discussions so far, I get the following:

1. Destroyers are good for destroying capital ships with their torpedoes (once their screens are down).
2. Light cruisers are good at dominating the screen fight. If you want the capital ships to eat torpedoes, that's where light cruisers shine.
3. Heavy cruisers are cheap heavy gun platforms. They are good meatshields in a battle-line combat, as well as dealing with well-escorted convoys (if you're poor to have BB).
4. BB and BC will be dominating the battle-line fight. They will deal with enemy CA with ease, and get a chance to shoot at carriers/ convoys. They are just there... for the sake of being there due to their expensive arsenal of firepower and protection. As long as they have good screening, it is not a crime to have these beasts around.
5. Carriers and convoys. Convoys are necessary for economic sustainability, so you need screening ships to guard against torpedoes and capital ships to block any heavy guns. If there is a carrier, it can provide air cover against enemy planes. The screening and capital ships are also armed with AA to distract enemy planes from targeting the vulnerable convoys.

Edit:

I also want to add that naval warfare is divided into several categories, and understanding them will help us deploy the right formation.

I . Economic sustainability: this is where convoys are the most precious assets and your strategy evolves around protecting them from all kinds of threats (submarines, surface raiders, planes). Probably apply to the British, who aims to overcome naval blockade by Germany and Italian navy.

2. Battle of annihilation: you aim to destroy the enemy main fleet in one decisive confrontation, like the Battle of Midway. Carriers are the most important assets, so understanding the threats against them.
Probably apply to Japanese, who knew it could not win in long run against US.

3. Fleet in Being concept: the goal is to deny easy access to a sea by a superior force. In this case, battleships and battlecruisers are the most important assets, since they are big and imposing but also vulnerable to smaller crafts. You need to protect them carefully.
Applies to Italy who needs to face the combined French and British in Mediterranean.

4. All-round dominance: nations who have the luxury to impose their will on surrounding oceans with little fear. Instead of simply denying access, the nation seeks to use its economic advantage to control the seas. In this case, the most important assets would probably be the large amount of cheap but effective ship killers like destroyers, submarines and cruisers. Carriers can be counted but they are still expensive and need time to train. The goal is to aggressively go out there, search and destroy. Capital ships are just there for show or protect the carriers.
US and France in this case would be the one. France in a limited way fit this bill. Because you have a strong UK support in the early phase of Mediterranean warfare. Your goal is control the sea before southern France, while Italy is distracted by UK.

 

[Harin]

Okay, from the discussions so far, I get the following:

1. Destroyers are good for destroying capital ships with their torpedoes (once their screens are down).
2. Light cruisers are good at dominating the screen fight. If you want the capital ships to eat torpedoes, that's where light cruisers shine.
3. Heavy cruisers are cheap heavy gun platforms. They are good meatshields in a battle-line combat, as well as dealing with well-escorted convoys (if you're poor to have BB)z
4. BB and BC will be dominating the battle-line fight. They will deal with enemy CA with ease, and get a chance to shoot at carriers/ convoys. They are just there... for the sake of being there due to their expensive arsenal of firepower and protection. As long as they have good screening, it is not a crime to have these beasts around.
5. Carriers and convoys. Convoys are necessary for economic dominance, so you need screening ships to guard against torpedoes and capital ships to block any heavy guns. If there is a carrier, it can provide air cover against enemy planes. The screening and capital ships are also armed with AA to distract enemy planes from targeting the vulnerable convoys.

I think you just summed up the surface naval fight in HOI4.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

Okay, from the discussions so far, I get the following:

1. Destroyers are good for destroying capital ships with their torpedoes (once their screens are down).
2. Light cruisers are good at dominating the screen fight. If you want the capital ships to eat torpedoes, that's where light cruisers shine.
3. Heavy cruisers are cheap heavy gun platforms. They are good meatshields in a battle-line combat, as well as dealing with well-escorted convoys (if you're poor to have BB).
4. BB and BC will be dominating the battle-line fight. They will deal with enemy CA with ease, and get a chance to shoot at carriers/ convoys. They are just there... for the sake of being there due to their expensive arsenal of firepower and protection. As long as they have good screening, it is not a crime to have these beasts around.
5. Carriers and convoys. Convoys are necessary for economic sustainability, so you need screening ships to guard against torpedoes and capital ships to block any heavy guns. If there is a carrier, it can provide air cover against enemy planes. The screening and capital ships are also armed with AA to distract enemy planes from targeting the vulnerable convoys.

Edit:

I also want to add that naval warfare is divided into several categories, and understanding them will help us deploy the right formation.

I . Economic sustainability: this is where convoys are the most precious assets and your strategy evolves around protecting them from all kinds of threats (submarines, surface raiders, planes). Probably apply to the British, who aims to overcome naval blockade by Germany and Italian navy.

2. Battle of annihilation: you aim to destroy the enemy main fleet in one decisive confrontation, like the Battle of Midway. Carriers are the most important assets, so understanding the threats against them.
Probably apply to Japanese, who knew it could not win in long run against US.

3. Fleet in Being concept: the goal is to deny easy access to a sea by a superior force. In this case, battleships and battlecruisers are the most important assets, since they are big and imposing but also vulnerable to smaller crafts. You need to protect them carefully.
Applies to Italy who needs to face the combined French and British in Mediterranean.

4. All-round dominance: nations who have the luxury to impose their will on surrounding oceans with little fear. Instead of simply denying access, the nation seeks to use its economic advantage to control the seas. In this case, the most important assets would probably be the large amount of cheap but effective ship killers like destroyers, submarines and cruisers. Carriers can be counted but they are still expensive and need time to train. The goal is to aggressively go out there, search and destroy. Capital ships are just there for show or protect the carriers.
US and France in this case would be the one. France in a limited way fit this bill. Because you have a strong UK support in the early phase of Mediterranean warfare. Your goal is control the sea before southern France, while Italy is distracted by UK.

I think you just summed up the surface naval fight in HOI4.

Jepp, exactly. But that´s not all you can use your Ships. The best Works for Ships (which are found from Hoi-Veterans), which I aggree absolutly are:

1. / 2. Light Cruisers and Destroyers: Patrol-Fleet!!
- Destroyers for Subhunting on Coasts and light Waters as well as the oldest Variants (like the 1924 or the Caine-Class) for Minesweeping and Minelaying.
- Light Cruisers Patrol-Duty on Coasts and light Waters; they attack enemy Convoys and lighter Ships if the chance is good to excellent.
- Light Cruisers with 1940 and 1944-Hull are good for long range Patrols, Convoi-Escorts and Subhuntings.

3. Heavy Cruisers: Secure-Ships for Heavys and Aircraft-Carriers and long range Patrol / Convoi-Raids / Convoi-Escort!!
- Nothing more to say, you have described it correctly.
- Working good in second with 1940 / 1944-Hull light Cruisers later.

4. Battleships (BB´s) and Battlecruisers (BC´s): The Workhorse of every fleet!!
- Both are perfect to give Coastlandings Fire Support [I use it everytime] to get a Bridgehead very very fast.
- They are the Ships against heavy enemy Fleets with BB´s, BC´s, CA´s and Aircraftcarriers.
- Only use them with the Waiting-Mission, if you wanna have Sea-Fights; they are using a hughe of Fuel.
- Exception: If you attack an Island / Coast (like Norway, UK) then use them for Fire Support combined with the Airforce.

5. Aircraftcarriers (CV´s): the swimming Plattform for your Fighters (if you have the Aircraft-Carrier-Model researched)!!
- Use smaller CV´s (on Cruiser-Hull) and bigger CV´s in long range Patrol-Fleets with the CA´s and later 1940 / 1944- CL´s.
- Use smaller CV´s (on Cruiser-Hull) and bigger CV´s in Convoi-Guards too with the later 1940 / 1944 CL´s.
- Nice Side-Effect: You can stop Patrol and say that the Planes can make Attacks like the Japanase on Pearl Harbor.

 

[StanCollins]

It has been said that CAs shoot at the capital ships first. If you put CL guns on a CA (in an existing open slot) will it fire at both lines with the appropriate guns? I assume so based on the type of gun doing the shooting.

 

[I had a bad name 99]

Jepp, exactly. But that´s not all you can use your Ships. The best Works for Ships (which are found from Hoi-Veterans), which I aggree absolutly are:

1. / 2. Light Cruisers and Destroyers: Patrol-Fleet!!
- Destroyers for Subhunting on Coasts and light Waters as well as the oldest Variants (like the 1924 or the Caine-Class) for Minesweeping and Minelaying.
- Light Cruisers Patrol-Duty on Coasts and light Waters; they attack enemy Convoys and lighter Ships if the chance is good to excellent.
- Light Cruisers with 1940 and 1944-Hull are good for long range Patrols, Convoi-Escorts and Subhuntings.

3. Heavy Cruisers: Secure-Ships for Heavys and Aircraft-Carriers and long range Patrol / Convoi-Raids / Convoi-Escort!!
- Nothing more to say, you have described it correctly.
- Working good in second with 1940 / 1944-Hull light Cruisers later.

4. Battleships (BB´s) and Battlecruisers (BC´s): The Workhorse of every fleet!!
- Both are perfect to give Coastlandings Fire Support [I use it everytime] to get a Bridgehead very very fast.
- They are the Ships against heavy enemy Fleets with BB´s, BC´s, CA´s and Aircraftcarriers.
- Only use them with the Waiting-Mission, if you wanna have Sea-Fights; they are using a hughe of Fuel.
- Exception: If you attack an Island / Coast (like Norway, UK) then use them for Fire Support combined with the Airforce.

5. Aircraftcarriers (CV´s): the swimming Plattform for your Fighters (if you have the Aircraft-Carrier-Model researched)!!
- Use smaller CV´s (on Cruiser-Hull) and bigger CV´s in long range Patrol-Fleets with the CA´s and later 1940 / 1944- CL´s.
- Use smaller CV´s (on Cruiser-Hull) and bigger CV´s in Convoi-Guards too with the later 1940 / 1944 CL´s.
- Nice Side-Effect: You can stop Patrol and say that the Planes can make Attacks like the Japanase on Pearl Harbor.

Nice description. One more thing, how to distinguish escort carrier from fleet carrier?

Also how to subhunt with destroyers or carriers? Is there a mission to do so...

Lastly, you mention light waters. Is it important to know the difference between deep waters and light waters? Would be cool to know cos it should affect the effectiveness and speed of torpedoes (perfect if you are doing a strike group mission).

Edit: another last thing, how good are battleships at killing screens? They also have light guns. Will they be able to shoot at both battle line and screens?

 

[SophieX]

water-terrain modifiers:
water_fjords:
for BB, BC, CA, CV
attack = -0.2
movement = -0.2
defence = -0.2
navy_fuel_consumption_factor = 0.2
navy_visibility = -0.2
positioning = -0.15


water_shallow_sea:
for SS
navy_visibility = 1.0

positioning = -0.05


water_deep_ocean:
for DD
attack = -0.2
movement = -0.2
defence = -0.2

for CL
attack = -0.1
movement = -0.1
defence = -0.1

for SS
navy_visibility = -0.15
movement = -0.25

 

[Mousetick]

Also how to subhunt with destroyers or carriers? Is there a mission to do so...

The "Patrol" mission does the job. Also "Convoy Escort" with subhunting capable ships, which is a waste of those ships.
In my experience, naval bombers are more effective at sinking submarines.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

3. Heavy cruisers are cheap heavy gun platforms. They are good meatshields in a battle-line combat, as well as dealing with well-escorted convoys (if you're poor to have BB).

CAs are also supposed to be adequate at dodging torp attacks. Not on destroyer level (even those can be sunk by torps, occasionally), but not much worse than CLs.

 

[SophieX]

...
In my experience, naval bombers are more effective at sinking submarines.

But you need to detect them. Therefor you need scoutplanes or radar-ships or land based radarstation and sonar ships.

 

[ArcandSpark]

this has been a great conversation so far. lots of good information

Naval battle - Hearts of Iron 4 Wiki

hoi4.paradoxwikis.com

The base hit chance is 10%, 11% for depth charges. If the firing ship is lacking manpower or organization, the chance is reduced by up to -25% and -50% respectively.

Another factor is the guns hit profile compared to the target's profile. Small, agile ships are harder to hit, especially for bigger and slower guns. The hit profile of a ship is its surface/sub visibility multiplied by 100 and divided by its speed. Subs use their sub visibility, even when revealed. The hit profile of convoys is always 120. This profile is divided by the gun's hit profile (light: 40, heavy: 90, torpedo: 145, depth charge: 100) and then squared. It factors into the hit chance but can not increase it.

https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/images/6/69/Hit_profile_multiplier.png

i cant save the file with my phone but its a graph showing visibility/speed vs hit profile multiplier. its a good graph to check out!

 

[I had a bad name 99]

CAs are also supposed to be adequate at dodging torp attacks. Not on destroyer level (even those can be sunk by torps, occasionally), but not much worse than CLs.

Why are CLs bad at dodging torp? I thought CA is larger and heavier than CLs?

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Why are CLs bad at dodging torp? I thought CA is larger and heavier than CLs?

They aren't bad, per se. Not as good as destroyers is all.
CAs have similar speed and visibility as CLs (a bit slower and easier to detect) - only things that matter, when it comes to calculating hit chance - but much better than lager capitals in both regards (well, carriers can be faster, yes).

 

[ArcandSpark]

Why are CLs bad at dodging torp? I thought CA is larger and heavier than CLs?

CLs are good at dodging torpedoes but not as good as destroyers. check out the graph and info in my post. the link might be better

 

[Hoi Neuling]

@ SophieX:

Thanks for the Help. That makes my Explanation much Easyer.

@EliteWehrmacht:

I will try to answer your Questions as good as I can.

1. Subhunting isn´t there as a Mission. Normaly the Destroyers / CV´s will react automaticly on Patrol, Escort and similar Misssions.

You will get informed about it with the Waterfight-Info-Thing. Mostly your DD´s / CV´s will react on U-Boat-Attacks at Convoys or bigger Ships. And if you get lucky the DD´s / CV-Planes find the Subs before the Convoy / Bigships get attacked in an Escort-Mission. If the DD´s / CV´s are on Patrol they will attack the Subs as fast as possible after Spotting and react on Attacks.

Differs how much Ships you have there and in what Zone your DD´s are atm.

2. Yes it´s Vital to know the Waters. Every Water have an effect on Speed, Mobility and such. If there are Mines in light to medium Waters to reduce the Mobilty for enemy Ships and Carriers you got a Problem against Torpedos, Gunfire, Air-Attacks etc.

Big Ships you should use in Deep Waters. They are not so good in light Waters or the Coast with Mobility and Speed, but therefore they can give a very good Fire-Support for your Landing-Troops. After that Job is finished they should go back to Harbor and wait for a better Mission [Strike Group Mission] for 2 Reasons: 1. Fuel which need all 3 Parts of your Military and 2. to have them Ready if they get needed for a Strike Group Mission!

Light Ships you should use in light Waters and in the Near of Coasts. LC´s and DD´s / Torpedoboats are good for that. They can Patrol, Minelaying, Minesweeping, Escort etc. here much better (esp. the older Hulls).

With the newer Hulls which are better suited for medium and deep Water you can operating much better later on. Personaly I would use the DD´s max in Medium Waters, the LC´s can then used in Deeper Waters too but not so good as Medium Hulls.

Medium Ships (CA´s / Panzerships) are Alrounders with their Weapons. They have not so good mobility and Speed in light Waters / Coastnear, but are good Allrounders in medium and deeper Waters. Like I said, they can make long Range Patrols and Convoy Attacks as well as Convoy Escorts.

As you can see on SophieX-Post what I mean. Such informations you will get from the Sea-Fields. With that Infos I plan my Work for the Navy.

3. Big Ships (BB´s and BC´s) will use their big Weapons against other big Ships (BC´s and BB´s). If all that are sunk or flown the big Guns will attack the Convoys and CV´s. If there aren´t any of them the big Guns will used against the Screen. The lighter Weapons (you mean the Secondary Battery) will used every time againt the Screens (which are mostly DD´s and CL´s). I don´t know about a CA as Big-Ship or Screen anymore, so I leave that open.

The smaller Weapons are normaly attacking only the Screenfield. If there is no Screen or no Screen left they attack the CV´s and / or Convoy-Ships. Therfore your Screen and Cruisers should every time have Torpedos on Board. This is the only Weapon which work on all Parts of the Navy Battle. The better the Screen is lowerd, the better Torpedos can attack big Ships and Carriers / Transports.

Hope that Helps.

 

[Riekopo]

This is a great example of why I wish the game shoed you a play-by-play of the battle in the post battle window. So you could see exactly what happened. Just seeing the end result isn't terribly useful.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

It´s very interesting to see the fight / fights on See in Realtime after the Screens are opend. But in that Time you oversee something in the Land war. A better way would be to give a small window with the Seafight / Seafights, where you can switch between the Seafights. And you can rais / lower it like the Focus tree to have an better overwatch about the Landscape.

 

[Harin]

This is a great example of why I wish the game shoed you a play-by-play of the battle in the post battle window. So you could see exactly what happened. Just seeing the end result isn't terribly useful.

It would be nice to be able to pause the game and hit a REPLAY button for sea battles, or maybe even other battles.