WTF My entire navy got wrecked easily?

[Harin]

Damn, what a disappointment. I thought CA is a mini battleship.

What is the point of capital ships? I know carriers can sink screening especially LC. But battleships? What is its role? Why not just have a lot of LC and DD?

Edit: maybe BB and BC are just a bigger gun platform for light guns to wipe out screening ships? Same for CA.

@Cavalry is correct. You can build just CLs and DDs and win big.

One of the mechanical roles of BBs, BCs, and CAs is to screen carriers. Just like light ships screen all the capitals ships from torpedoes, carriers require at least one BB, BC, or CA per carrier, to screen them from enemy capital ship fire. It is what keeps carriers out of range so to speak. Like any screening formula, you will want more than one to one screening since losses or bad positioning can cause the carrier screen to get low enough to expose your carriers to enemy capital ship fire. So if you have four carriers you want at least four capitals screening them, but most likely six or more, to be safe.

 

[Harin]

So in a close confrontion between two equally sized fleets, there is a chance of massive loss. Right?

Yes, but since the AI rarely builds a good light attack platform, your player designed ships will shred the AI before you take heavy losses, usually.

 

[Cavalry]

So in a close confrontion between two equally sized fleets, there is a chance of massive loss. Right?

The big loss happen on the later hours of battle, when several small loss will lead to big loss, especially if your screen line was defeat. Click the Runaway button can save ships.

 

[Cavalry]

So if you have four carriers you want at least four capitals screening them, but most likely six or more, to be safe.

These screen ratio is only for stopping torpedo, if one stop the torpedo at the screen line then he need just 1 BB to block gun fire for all the CVs.

 

[I had a bad name 99]

@Cavalry is correct. You can build just CLs and DDs and win big.

One of the mechanical roles of BBs, BCs, and CAs is to screen carriers. Just like light ships screen all the capitals ships from torpedoes, carriers require at least one BB, BC, or CA per carrier, to screen them from enemy capital ship fire. It is what keeps carriers out of range so to speak. Like any screening formula, you will want more than one to one screening since losses or bad positioning can cause the carrier screen to get low enough to expose your carriers to enemy capital ship fire. So if you have four carriers you want at least four capitals screening them, but most likely six or more, to be safe.

Interesting. Just a little historical context. Before advent of carriers, battleships seem to play an out-sized role from Napoleonic times to WW1, even though smaller ships like cruisers exist back then. Think about the battleship race between Imperial Germany and UK. So now, its role is reduced to screening carriers. What happened to the fleet in being concept? I guess the invention of torpedo is what changes the game -- smaller ships can have a chance of defeating and even sinking capital ships (that cannot happened in Napoleonic times when you can afford to have massive battleship clash). Hence, the decisive battle of Trafalgar never transpired again in WW1 where most battleships are just for show. Smaller ships like submarines, cruisers and destroyers armed with torpedo can be deadly to battleships. Until the advent of planes which decisively ended the romantic era of battleships.

Edit:

From Wikipedia,
The value of the battleship has been questioned, even during their heyday.[12] There were few of the decisive fleet battles that battleship proponents expected, and used to justify the vast resources spent on building battlefleets. Even in spite of their huge firepower and protection, battleships were increasingly vulnerable to much smaller and relatively inexpensive weapons: initially the torpedo and the naval mine, and later aircraft and the guided missile.[13]

Also, I believe battleships are used to display naval dominance. Because they are so expensive to build, any nation who can build plenty of them already demonstrated that they can build more screening ships than other nations. Battleship is basically a luxury la. If you can afford the luxuries, the basics like destroyers and cruisers -- you basically have plenty of them to outnumber anyone.

Lastly, wikipedia also says having battleships mean you can impose naval blockade on any nation. Remember ultimate naval dominance is about economic dominance. If you can prevent imports from getting into a nation, that nation suffers in a long run. Destroyers and cruisers don't have that size and dominance to frighten merchant ships; battleships do.

 

[Harin]

From Wikipedia,
The value of the battleship has been questioned, even during their heyday.[12] There were few of the decisive fleet battles that battleship proponents expected, and used to justify the vast resources spent on building battlefleets. Even in spite of their huge firepower and protection, battleships were increasingly vulnerable to much smaller and relatively inexpensive weapons: initially the torpedo and the naval mine, and later aircraft and the guided missile.[13]

In WW1 the British and French lost 3 battleships and had 3 more damaged by naval mines on March 18th, 1915 during the Dardanelles campaign. I just saw a documentary on that battle the other day.

 

[I had a bad name 99]

In WW1 the British and French lost 3 battleships and had 3 more damaged by naval mines on March 18th, 1915 during the Dardanelles campaign. I just saw a documentary on that battle the other day.

I believe the huge coastal guns play a part?

Edit:Speaking of which, it would be nice if coastal forts can inflict similar penalty to naval ships like the latter did to troops with shore bombardment...

 

[Harin]

I believe the huge coastal guns play a part?

Edit:Speaking of which, it would be nice if coastal forts can inflict similar penalty to naval ships like the latter did to troops with shore bombardment...

The guns played a part in restricting movement, but the mines were what proved decisive. The British and French had bombarded the forts earlier, but were careful to stay back from the mines, laid in ten rows across the straights. When they retired, the Turks laid more mines where the British and French had been the previous day. When the British and French returned, they drove right into the new mine field and quickly lost three battleships and had three more damaged by the mines.

 

[Happy Trigger]

If I spot the enemy first, will I get an initial advantage?

Also your strategy of having a smaller fleet to deal with patrol ships and escorts sounds good, but how to ensure they don't get engaged by the enemy's main fleet and destroyed? By making sure it is much faster to flee?

When i'm playing with Italy, my small fleet is composed by 2CAs, 2CLs and 6~10DDs. I normally use the class Zara (25 knots), because there isn't have enough time to refit the CAs. But what i can say is that, they work pretty well because they operate exclusively under friendly air zones, with the support of NAVs or Tactical Bombers, and because the distances between the Mediterraneum Sea are all short. But if you're playing with Japan or USA, i would highly suggest to invest heavily in speed and AA (armor is not so important in this case), not only because of the distances, but because you might not control all the air zones all the time, and the distances between a your port and the enemy ships create the danger of been caught by the enemy on the retreat of your ships.

The good side of this estrategy is that, while your small task force is attacking the enemy patrol ships, the enemy main task force will try to caught your small fleet. If you have a higher detection than them, while your small force is retreating, your main force can catch the enemy fleet out of position, giving you good bonuses at the start of the fight.

Just explaining, i learned this tactic observing the USA AI playing the Pacific war. I rarely saw their main fleet, but engages with small forces were frequent, then i had this idea.

 

[I had a bad name 99]

catch the enemy fleet out of position, giving you good bonuses at the start of the fight.

How does positioning work in this case?

 

[ArcandSpark]

So what about using 2CL+4DD for patrols and surface raiding? if you throw CAs into the mix then wouldnt that spend too much fuel?

*edit*
also only light attack and torpedoes are useful for those two jobs which is another drawback of adding a CA.

 

[I had a bad name 99]

So what about using 2CL+4DD for patrols and surface raiding? if you throw CAs into the mix then wouldnt that spend too much fuel?

*edit*
also only light attack and torpedoes are useful for those two jobs which is another drawback of adding a CA.

To defend against capital ships? I believe I have witnessed four heavy cruisers sinking a battleship...

 

[ArcandSpark]

To defend against capital ships? I believe I have witnessed four heavy cruisers sinking a battleship...

i understand what you are saying hut i dont know if it is worth the investment. also for that line of reasoning then when would be a good point to stop? is 2 CAs on each patrol a good idea? would it just be better to add in BCs or BBs in the end?

 

[I had a bad name 99]

i understand what you are saying hut i dont know if it is worth the investment. also for that line of reasoning then when would be a good point to stop? is 2 CAs on each patrol a good idea? would it just be better to add in BCs or BBs in the end?

I think you invest in CA if you can afford it. Meaning you believe you have sufficient screening ships (LC, DD) to win in any confrontation with other nations. Don't get CA if your screening is going to get creamed. CA is like your luxury good. You get it only if you have the basics right. The CA is there to provide heavy guns in case of confrontation with the main fleet. And you might be able to sink some lone battleship (that the AI sometimes do). I believe historically, Axis did try to use lone BB or BC for convoy raiding, and this can cause trouble to Allies who had to send two or more ships to sink it. That's when your 2 CA comes into play -- provide that heavy guns to sink it. Of course, DD also have torpedo (not sure whether it is more accurate or have the range like heavy gun. Which is better in dealing with bigger ships -- heavy gun or torpedo?)

BCs and BBs are much more expensive. I believe CA is just LC with heavy guns on it. If you need a cheap heavy gun platform, CA is the way to go.


Edit:

Directly quoting from a source elsewhere--
Torpedoes can't target the battle line orcarrier line or convoy line if screens are at 100% on the screen line. Heavy gunscan target the battle line even if the screens are at 100%, and heavy gunscan also target carriers/convoys if the battle line isn't 100%

From what i get here, you can probably use heavy guns on CA to target well-escorted convoys. If the convoy has no battle line but good screens that defend against torpedo, your heavy guns can still attack convoy line.

 

[hkrommel]

I think you invest in CA if you can afford it. Meaning you believe you have sufficient screening ships (LC, DD) to win in any confrontation with other nations. Don't get CA if your screening is going to get creamed. CA is like your luxury good. You get it only if you have the basics right. The CA is there to provide heavy guns in case of confrontation with the main fleet. And you might be able to sink some lone battleship (that the AI sometimes do). I believe historically, Axis did try to use lone BB or BC for convoy raiding, and this can cause trouble to Allies who had to send two or more ships to sink it. That's when your 2 CA comes into play -- provide that heavy guns to sink it. Of course, DD also have torpedo (not sure whether it is more accurate or have the range like heavy gun. Which is better in dealing with bigger ships -- heavy gun or torpedo?)

BCs and BBs are much more expensive. I believe CA is just LC with heavy guns on it. If you need a cheap heavy gun platform, CA is the way to go.


Edit:

Directly quoting from a source elsewhere--
Torpedoes can't target the battle line orcarrier line or convoy line if screens are at 100% on the screen line. Heavy gunscan target the battle line even if the screens are at 100%, and heavy gunscan also target carriers/convoys if the battle line isn't 100%

From what i get here, you can probably use heavy guns on CA to target well-escorted convoys. If the convoy has no battle line but good screens that defend against torpedo, your heavy guns can still attack convoy line.

CAs are useful to lead scouting fleets. They're fast enough to get away from larger forces, strong enough to defeat other patrolling fleets that only have CLs and DDs.

Basically there's a role for all ships, from your screenshot it just looks like you didn't have enough screens or your screens were old/bad designs. You need them to hold out to allow your damage-dealers (BBs, BCs, CVs) to do their work.

 

[I had a bad name 99]

CAs are useful to lead scouting fleets. They're fast enough to get away from larger forces, strong enough to defeat other patrolling fleets that only have CLs and DDs.

Basically there's a role for all ships, from your screenshot it just looks like you didn't have enough screens or your screens were old/bad designs. You need them to hold out to allow your damage-dealers (BBs, BCs, CVs) to do their work.

Are the heavy guns on CA good for taking out the screens? I would assume they have huge shells and longer range.

 

[hkrommel]

Are the heavy guns on CA good for taking out the screens? I would assume they have huge shells and longer range.

I usually play with mods that specifically name the types of guns, but you generally want the light attack stat to be high for ships designed to take out light ships (CLs and DDs). CAs excel at destroying CLs and DDs with the right armament, just experiment in the ship designer and see what you like.

 

[Harin]

Are the heavy guns on CA good for taking out the screens? I would assume they have huge shells and longer range.

CA's are considered capitals and their heavy attack will shoot over the screen line and attack the battle line. The light cruisers and destroyers will fight at the screen line. That is what makes light cruisers so deadly in the screen fight. They are the big ship in the screen line and can pack large amounts of light attack.

Directly quoting from a source elsewhere--
Torpedoes can't target the battle line orcarrier line or convoy line if screens are at 100% on the screen line. Heavy gunscan target the battle line even if the screens are at 100%, and heavy gunscan also target carriers/convoys if the battle line isn't 100%

From what i get here, you can probably use heavy guns on CA to target well-escorted convoys. If the convoy has no battle line but good screens that defend against torpedo, your heavy guns can still attack convoy line.

This is good information and your observation would be a valid one. I know I assumed the same thing. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that those destroyers do not play. They keep their torpedoes on a hair trigger and they seem to move at warp 5 speed. Before you know it, those screens will sink your CA or any other capital that does not have a screen to protect it. That is assuming that the enemy destroyers protecting the convoy have torpedoes.

 

[dasaard200]

As USN, I'll toss in my 2 cents worth ... I use the ORIGINAL MtG screening rules; i.e. 1 capital/cargo : 4+screens, (I've got the slots to build large) .
I consider 'early' and '36 DDs are for convoy duties, and try to space them about a week apart {4 x 15 SYs = 60 SYs}, until the first '40 DDs can be built (and fully equipped), switching 3 Lines to the newer Fleet DDs .

Statehood for Alaska, Hawaii, and Porto Rico, for extra slots; and we get to CLs (2 months) and CAs (3 months) to build ... [pay attention to rushing Tools 1,2,3, and Construction 1,2,3 !!]

SSs need a steady diet of 5 SYs;
along with Cargos which I use these slots as slopover slots for larger group builds (CLs, CAs, CVs) .

CVs {we'll bring AIR to YOU !} are where USN shines; damn expensive, killer Fleet centerpieces; I like 4-6 CAs and 1 BB to screen a CV, and 32+ small fry [CLs, DDs] to 'safely' wander around as a SINGLE CV TF ... a 4 CV Deathstack would weigh in at 224+ ships ! ...

USN also has a puppet, the Phillipines, which can be quite EFFECTIVE when properly abused :
1] Mods in use- Resource Factories, Improved Dockyard Limit ;
2] Raising local troops for battling Dockyards, Ports, and RFactories (chrome, rubber, steel, aluminum) for autonomy score to stay within 'Integrated Puppet' status as long as possible .
Eventually an 800+ ship USN is possible using all of the coastal states .

 

[Cavalry]

Are the heavy guns on CA good for taking out the screens? I would assume they have huge shells and longer range.

The light gun hit easiser. The medium gun shoot enemy battle line first. Their strong is armor piericing but the DD don't have any armor.

The CA has the advantage of +40% hit chance if 100% screened, and they can shoot first. But they will get concentrated fire from all enemy capitals and planes.

More From Diary:
When it comes to regular combat we wanted to help out carriers and capital ships a bit and we felt the more realistic way of doing that was to give them a time at the start of the combat when they are the only ones active. Carriers and aircraft are active straight away. Some ticks later capital ships and subs get to fire and last screens. This gives a bit of a boost to those bigger ships and represents their longer ranged weapons better.