Wrong anatolia.

[unmerged(375695)]

Hello, no game is more lent to the historical reality as Europa Universalis. I am an Hobby historian and be on mind with the medieval history of
Anatolia and the Balkans. There are some thinks that are really annoying me, because the ethnography of Anatolia has massive deficits.

1. Qarabagh

This province has always been populated by an armenian majority.



Quote: "It is probable that the Armenians formed the majority of the population of Eastern Armenia at the turn of the seventeenth century"

Quote: In the early 16th century, [...]. Despite these conquests, the population of Upper Karabakh remained largely Armenian.

This are only two of many Facts. I could continue this list.

Suggestion --> Chance the province culture into armenian, the Religion into orthodox, and give core to armenia

2. Western armenia (Erzerum, Sivas, Kurdistan and Ramazan)

There are many Facts that Show a clearly armenian majority until the early 17th century.



Quote: View the map on the right upper Corner.


Quote: Watch the ethnographic map. If they even were an majority in 1914 imagine how it would be in 1444.

3. Greek presence in Anatolia (Smyrna, Sinope /maybe hüdavendigar and Izmit)

Smyrna even in the early 20th century was mainly populated by greeks.



Watch the ethnographic map.



British and American statistics (1919) support the point that the Greek element was the most numerous in the region of Smyrna, counting 375,000, while Muslims were 325,000.

Sinop was mainly populated by greeks. In the 17th century many greeks became muslims due to the Ottoman devshire System.
Even today there live thousands muslim greeks.



Watch the list.

Suggestion --> Smyrna and Sinope Change into greek and orthodox and give byzantine core (sinope / trapezunt core too)

Hüdavendigar and Izmit Change into greek and maybe let the Religion sunni.

4. Dulkadir

This province never had an turkish majority. Even today it is still mainly populated by kurds. (In game would be azerbaijani culture)


Suggestion --> Change dulkadir into azerbaijani

I showed you clearly facts that should be changed.

Yours faithfully

Nikos

 

[kraussda]

It is very easy to mod the history files to change in-game cultures. I wouldn't count on this making it into a patch, but this is the kind of thing P'dox has made very easy for us to do ourselves.

 

[Red John]

It is very easy to mod the history files to change in-game cultures. I wouldn't count on this making it into a patch, but this is the kind of thing P'dox has made very easy for us to do ourselves.

If the game has the matching cultures for it, has a good historical basis, and the AI doesn't freak out over the changes, then I see there no reason why they can't add such things into a patch.

 

[Mamluke]

If the game has the matching cultures for it, has a good historical basis, and the AI doesn't freak out over the changes, then I see there no reason why they can't add such things into a patch.

yeah, but for PDS, this is like the LOWEST priority possible, its an easy change right?, but sometimes, even the easiest are the ones that get ignored (PDS didn´t "try to fix" the pip gap between tech groups until now, and that was since EU3

 

[Red John]

yeah, but for PDS, this is like the LOWEST priority possible, its an easy change right?, but sometimes, even the easiest are the ones that get ignored (PDS didn´t "try to fix" the pip gap between tech groups until now, and that was since EU3

At this point, I don't think anybody knows paradox's priorities.

Even Paradox themselves...

 

[Chamboozer]

3. Greek presence in Anatolia (Smyrna, Sinope /maybe hüdavendigar and Izmit)

Smyrna even in the early 20th century was mainly populated by greeks.

The problem with this is that Smyrna in the game doesn't align with the historical Smyrna. It is Smyrna + Manisa + Aydın. So while Smyrna itself had a Greek majority, the area covered by the province in the game was mostly Turkish.

 

[aitaituo]

If you could cite the source of those quotes and provide links to/pictures of the referenced list and maps and then repost this in the bug reports subforum, Paradox may well change the history files accordingly. Minor changes like this are definitely low priority, but some patches have made similar changes due to bug reports pointing out historical inaccuracies.

However, I wouldn't include records from outside the game's time frame. While it's certainly logical to assume a Greek majority in 1900 means there was a Greek majority in 1500, it's not actually evidence of anything. Logic has no place in history.

 

[FrosT37]

It is very easy to mod the history files to change in-game cultures. I wouldn't count on this making it into a patch, but this is the kind of thing P'dox has made very easy for us to do ourselves.

No. Historical mistakes like that should be corrected by Paradox. The starting map should be as historically accurate as possible.

Now, if the player wants to change how the game itself works, then yes, modding should be the way to go. Paradox does not have to adjust to every play style out there.

So, I suggest OP to post this bug (because it is a bug) in the Bug reports subforum.

 

[kraussda]

No. Historical mistakes like that should be corrected by Paradox. The starting map should be as historically accurate as possible.

Now, if the player wants to change how the game itself works, then yes, modding should be the way to go. Paradox does not have to adjust to every play style out there.

So, I suggest OP to post this bug (because it is a bug) in the Bug reports subforum.

I'm not saying what paradox should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying since it can be fixed through changing one line of code that's player accessible, the OP (and anyone else that's interested) can have the problem fixed now without having to wait for paradox to patch it several months from now if they decide to at all.

 

[Golladan]

No. Historical mistakes like that should be corrected by Paradox. The starting map should be as historically accurate as possible.

Sometimes some leeway has to be given so that historically successful nations actually have a chance at regularly surviving instead falling appart the moment you unpause.

I think that is partially a reason why the game map is not 100% historically accurate.

 

[SicilianSaint]

Sometimes some leeway has to be given so that historically successful nations actually have a chance at regularly surviving instead falling appart the moment you unpause.

I think that is partially a reason why the game map is not 100% historically accurate.

It is a reason. Paradox have stated before in the past that they have altered some things from history to have a good starting game balance.

 

[Vellin]

I think one of Paradox's goals is creating a historically accurate start (at least that's what A_spec keeps saying in the dev multiplayer). If Armenians (or any other ethnicity) constitute a majority in one of EU4's provinces, not only is it ludicrous to say the province is another culture, it also runs counter to this goal.

If it is a concession so that existing nations proceed in a relatively historical manner, well, creating a historical inaccuracy for supposed historical accuracy simply should not be done.

Although again, I don't think even Paradox knows where they want to take this game (in terms of the historical versus gameplay split). In EU4 there are ahistorical gameplay mechanics right alongside historical events (Austria's inheritances, Iberian Wedding).

Now, I don't want a historical simulator because history could have gone off in infinitely many divergences. But I do want an accurate start.

 

[Encak]

I can't come up with a good solution to this because I can't figure out what this game means by "culture" and "culture group". Does it mean culture in the way Ethnicity? Ex. I am Czech so I look Czech. Or by Culture does it mean the language the people speak? Ex. You speak Greek as your first language so you are Greek.
If it means ethnically then Coastal Anatolia should be Greek, particularly in the former Empire of Nikea area while Central Anatolia should be Turkish and in the East it should be Armenian. If it means by language then ,aside from maybe 1-2 provinces on the west coast and 2 in the east, it should be Turkish.

 

[unmerged(375695)]

The problem with this is that Smyrna in the game doesn't align with the historical Smyrna. It is Smyrna + Manisa + Aydın. So while Smyrna itself had a Greek majority, the area covered by the province in the game was mostly Turkish.

1. Not only Smyrna had a greek majority. In many cities of the vilayet of aydin greek was very presentative. Most greeks converted to islam, to avoid the
high taxes. Even when the province had a muslim majority most of the people were greeks. Consider also, that we are talking about 1914. Imagine how the situation was in 1444. There was also big greek cities such as philadelphia that hold much longer than other greek cities on the coasts.

Hüdavendigar and Izmit do not need to be changed, but The other provinces must be changed i think.

A greek smyrna would make it much easier for the byzantines to come back to anatolia as an outpost as it was in 1919.

A greek Sinop would show the etnography of pontus more realistic and it would also give to trapezunt a small push.

The armenian provinces need to be changed. Even in the 17th century the armenian christians were a majority.

I hope paradox will think about that.

 

[unmerged(375695)]

If you could cite the source of those quotes and provide links to/pictures of the referenced list and maps and then repost this in the bug reports subforum

I deleted the sources, because i thought it is outlawed. I could repost it if you want.

 

[aragonFTW]

I agree that Armenians are way, way underrepresented in east Anatolia, almost to the point of genocide denial.

 

[Chamboozer]

1. Not only Smyrna had a greek majority. In many cities of the vilayet of aydin greek was very presentative. Most greeks converted to islam, to avoid the
high taxes. Even when the province had a muslim majority most of the people were greeks. Consider also, that we are talking about 1914. Imagine how the situation was in 1444. There was also big greek cities such as philadelphia that hold much longer than other greek cities on the coasts.

In their census data the Ottomans counted all Muslims together. There was no distinction to be made between Turkish Muslims and Greek Muslims, so even if what you say might be truth there is no way to know it through historical records. Furthermore the situation in 1914 has little bearing on the situation of 1444, but even if it did Greeks were definitely not a majority in the vilayet of Aydin in 1919 when census data based on ethnicity became available, as a US committee report at the Paris Peace Conference explains:

"The American Delegation cannot accept the figures presented by the Greek government as to the Turkish population. Their own information leads them to place the Turkish population at a figure which puts the Greeks in a decided minority in every sandjak of the area claimed by Greece [i.e. Aydin] except in the Sandjak of Smyrna itself" - quoted in Paul C. Helmreich, From Paris to Sevres: The Partition of the Ottoman Empire at the Peace Conference of 1919-1920 (Columbus: Ohio State University Press, 1974), 86.

In other words, the American study reported that Greeks were a minority everywhere outside of Smyrna.

 

[unmerged(375695)]

Furthermore the situation in 1914 has little bearing on the situation of 1444

but even if it did Greeks were definitely not a majority in the vilayet of Aydin in 1919 when census data based on ethnicity became available, as a US committee report at the Paris Peace Conference explains:

You want to explain to me, that 100 years after the occupation of a nearly homogeneous territory the turks became majority in 1444?
You also want to explain to me that the christian greeks who was two fifths of vilayet aydin in 1919 weren't a majority in 1444?

Maybe the "christian" greeks were not the majority, but it is very propably that the greeks "muslim and christian" were definitely the majority.
Also you need to consider, that most greeks convert to islam to avoid the devshire system.

Distribution of Greek dialects during the late Byzantine Emptire, 12-15th centuries

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=...ur=105&page=1&start=0&ndsp=33&ved=0CHAQrQMwCA

There was also christian greek cities that fall in 1390 such as philadelphia!

Do you think that most greeks of asia minor died within one century and was replaced by ethnic turks?

Maybe you should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Muslims

Most greeks convert to islam in 16th and 17th century.

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The armenian majority:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Armenia

 

[unmerged(375695)]

Whats about the admins/modes. Are they going to change some provinces?

Such as Western armenia?

 

[Outrider]

For the OP:

Both religion and culture in EU4 function as a deliberately oversimplified mechanic of "either/or" rather than something more nuanced (such as relative percentages that allow for multiple religions/cultures to exist in a province). Moreover, there isn't any reason to assume that numerical majority is the methodology by which paradox determines culture in multi-ethnic/cultural provinces. It could well be that the culture is determined by the local elites, especially since wrong culture spawn nationalist and patriot rebels (led/funded/armed by the local elite).

As for your original points (best as I can determine without access to your links) aside from an assumption that culture = numerical majority.

1) Neither quote specifically references populations at game start, but at time periods fifty years or a century and a half later. Both quotes also contain qualifiers - "probably" and "largely" -that cast doubt on the conclusions.
2) Any comparison to 1914 is irrelevant (as has been previously posted). I can't "imagine" what is was like in 1444 because there is a 450 year gap for which no information is provided.
3) See #2
4) See #2

If you could provide evidence to support your conclusions regarding majority religion/culture (and if paradox were to agree that numerical majority was the appropriate determination of culture for this game mechanic) you'd have a much better argument.

What could more accurately reflect the situation on the western coast of Anatolia would be to provide byzantine cores and rather than change the initial religion/culture provide an event or decision to flip the provinces once they've been reclaimed (similar to the Ottoman's decision for Constantinople.