Would you say battleships had more effect on WW2 as a resource/money diversion?

[Easy-Kill]

I have one counter-argument to the Brewsters Buffalos giving air support to the HMS Prince of Wales and the HMS Repulse, Zeroes. IJN Zeros did have a range of more than 3000 kilometers. Historically, Brewster Buffalos didn´t do well against Zeros and I am certain IJN assigned some Zeroes to escort their torpedo bombers.

Historically Buffalos just didn't do well

If I recall correctly, the Japanese aerial force was launched from Saigon. My understanding is that there were no Zeros covering the aircraft and for good reason. If you consider that the G4Ms and G4Ms had crews of 7, while the Zero was a much smaller aircraft with only one aircrew. Operating a single seat aircraft for such a journey is a challenge (food, water, pooping etc.)

 

[Finnish Dragon]

Historically Buffalos just didn't do well

If I recall correctly, the Japanese aerial force was launched from Saigon. My understanding is that there were no Zeros covering the aircraft and for good reason. If you consider that the G4Ms and G4Ms had crews of 7, while the Zero was a much smaller aircraft with only one aircrew. Operating a single seat aircraft for such a journey is a challenge (food, water, pooping etc.)

The problem with that is that the distance between Saigon and Singapore is less than 1100 kilometers. Zeroes stationed at Saigon could fly that distance in about 2 hours. I would expect that IJN sent their fighters to provide air cover to protect the air strike against HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse. Sinking those ships would protect the Japanese supply lane to Khota Bharu.

 

[Easy-Kill]

The problem with that is that the distance between Saigon and Singapore is less than 1100 kilometers. Zeroes stationed at Saigon could fly that distance in about 2 hours.

Modern 737-300s take about 2 hours to fly from Saigon to Singapore and they have a cruise speed of about 480 knots. (Mach 0.74 according to Wikipedia). Zeros had a maximum speed of 287 knots with a cruising speed of nearly half that. Try a flight of about 3 hours to reach the expected location. Not a comfortable way to fight.

Also, according to wikipedia, the air groups which did attack Force Z took off at 0755-0820 and did not make contact until 1113. The attacks were made as the aircraft arrived due to relatively low amount of fuel and these were larger aircraft with larger effective ranges.

I would expect that IJN sent their fighters to provide air cover to protect the air strike against HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse. Sinking those ships would protect the Japanese supply lane to Khota Bharu.

I just scanned through Colin Smith's Singapore Burning and he states explicitly that there were no fighter escorts for the Japanese strike force.

 

[Finnish Dragon]

Modern 737-300s take about 2 hours to fly from Saigon to Singapore and they have a cruise speed of about 480 knots. (Mach 0.74 according to Wikipedia). Zeros had a maximum speed of 287 knots with a cruising speed of nearly half that. Try a flight of about 3 hours to reach the expected location. Not a comfortable way to fight.

Also, according to wikipedia, the air groups which did attack Force Z took off at 0755-0820 and did not make contact until 1113. The attacks were made as the aircraft arrived due to relatively low amount of fuel and these were larger aircraft with larger effective ranges.

According to the Mapcrow, the distance between Singapore and Saigon is less than 1100 kilometers:

http://www.mapcrow.info/Distance_between_Singapore_SN_and_Saigon_VM.html

Zeroes would fly that distance in less than three hours. Fighter pilots from all sides did missions like that all the time during WWII. Their job was helping their side to win the war and their personal comfort was secondary.

I just scanned through Colin Smith's Singapore Burning and he states explicitly that there were no fighter escorts for the Japanese strike force.

That is interesting because as a Japanese commander before that attack I would have assumed that the British capital ships would have some kind of fighter cover, perhaps even a squadron of fighter planes.

 

[Easy-Kill]

According to the Mapcrow, the distance between Singapore and Saigon is less than 1100 kilometers:

http://www.mapcrow.info/Distance_between_Singapore_SN_and_Saigon_VM.html

Yet still it took the bombers about 3 hours to find their targets.

Zeroes would fly that distance in less than three hours. Fighter pilots from all sides did missions like that all the time during WWII. Their job was helping their side to win the war and their personal comfort was secondary.

OK. The problem isn't personal discomfort, it is about being able to sit in the same seat flying an aircraft safely for 6+Hours. It is about being able to navigate, operate the aircraft and do various other things while in the aircraft.

That is interesting because as a Japanese commander before that attack I would have assumed that the British capital ships would have some kind of fighter cover, perhaps even a squadron of fighter planes.

Perhaps if you would have been in charge Japan would have won (or lost much earlier).

 

[Finnish Dragon]

Yet still it took the bombers about 3 hours to find their targets.

According to the Wikipedia article Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse says that Japanese sub I-58 spotted the Force Z at 0340 and reported them. It means that IJN knew they location and possibly course and speed as well. They probably guessed that those ships were returning to Singapore. IJN probably knew quite well where to look for those ships but they needed the exact location.

OK. The problem isn't personal discomfort, it is about being able to sit in the same seat flying an aircraft safely for 6+Hours. It is about being able to navigate, operate the aircraft and do various other things while in the aircraft.

Navigating itself wouldn´t be a problem. The problem would be to navigate over the sea where isn´t many fixed points like islands or any other landmarks. Pilots would still have maps and compasses but determining their own location wasn´t easy over the sea.

Perhaps if you would have been in charge Japan would have won (or lost much earlier).

I talked about one tactical decision. What if Force Z would have asked air cover and IJN bombers found them without their fighter cover? Training pilots is quite expensive and losing valuable (and skilled) pilots and planes needlessly is always bad.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

OK. The problem isn't personal discomfort, it is about being able to sit in the same seat flying an aircraft safely for 6+Hours. It is about being able to navigate, operate the aircraft and do various other things while in the aircraft.

All I can see in my mind right now is an image of Pappy Boyington, hung over, using a complicated arrangements of rubber bands to keep his aircraft on course while he took a nap. And then shooting down a dozen planes or so when he gets on station. Bad, bad dude.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Navigating itself wouldn´t be a problem. The problem would be to navigate over the sea where isn´t many fixed points like islands or any other landmarks. Pilots would still have maps and compasses but determining their own location wasn´t easy over the sea.

Especially a carrier pilot whose landing strip has moved from Point A to Point B while they were out on mission. Absolutely amazing what they were able to accomplish with the tools they had to work with.

 

[gagenater]

Yet still it took the bombers about 3 hours to find their targets.



OK. The problem isn't personal discomfort, it is about being able to sit in the same seat flying an aircraft safely for 6+Hours. It is about being able to navigate, operate the aircraft and do various other things while in the aircraft.


Perhaps if you would have been in charge Japan would have won (or lost much earlier).

If it were important enough loosing a few of the fighter pilots and planes from exhaustion or disorientation would be acceptable. I think the bigger problem is that the zero was a navy plane. Weren't the bombers in Saigon from the Japanese Army? They didn't have any zero's. Their fighters (while often quite good) lacked the range to escort their bombers that far.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

If it were important enough loosing a few of the fighter pilots and planes from exhaustion or disorientation would be acceptable. I think the bigger problem is that the zero was a navy plane. Weren't the bombers in Saigon from the Japanese Army? They didn't have any zero's. Their fighters (while often quite good) lacked the range to escort their bombers that far.

Especially since they already had subs in the area for retrieval. Assuming the Japanese felt picking up a pilot was not unmanly. Perhaps the Japanese believed in just letting their pilots commit seppuku on the way down after their planes gave out. Sounds like them.

 

[Finnish Dragon]

If it were important enough loosing a few of the fighter pilots and planes from exhaustion or disorientation would be acceptable. I think the bigger problem is that the zero was a navy plane. Weren't the bombers in Saigon from the Japanese Army? They didn't have any zero's. Their fighters (while often quite good) lacked the range to escort their bombers that far.

Betty and Nell bombers which were used to sink the British capital ships were operated by the Japanese Navy. IJN knew that in a war against USA and Britain they would be the underdog, so having good torpedo bomber even the odds against the enemy naval forces.

 

[gagenater]

Especially a carrier pilot whose landing strip has moved from Point A to Point B while they were out on mission. Absolutely amazing what they were able to accomplish with the tools they had to work with.

Now take all that and do it on radio silence.

 

[Finnish Dragon]

Now take all that and do it on radio silence.

US Navy did have their own beacon system for their carrier planes. I think that was highly classified in WWII because that information could have been used to locate US carriers.

 

[BaronNoir]

To answer the OP, I would say that modern battleships were amazingly efficient (if amazingly expensive) for nations that could afford the expenses of providing them signficant air cover, oïl, state of the art radars and fire directors....

It pretty much boiled down to a single nation...

(Said nation slightly showboating...)

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Now take all that and do it on radio silence.

My point exactly

US Navy did have their own beacon system for their carrier planes. I think that was highly classified in WWII because that information could have been used to locate US carriers.

YE-ZB beacon was a very complicated, not entirely effective, method that was hit or miss and required some specialized skill on the pilots to use; and some were better than others at it. It was genuinely Point Navigation for most pilots, where they had to take off, find the target, perform their mission, then make it back to the Point where the carrier was supposed to be with a map, compass and an azimuth. Balls and skill, and lots of both, were required. Even late in the war you'll remember the story of Halsey turning on every spotlight in the fleet so his late-returning carrier planes could find their way home.

 

[BaronNoir]

The USN mitigated a lot of the issue by devoting significant ressources to recover ditched airmen (including using subs sorely for lifeguard duties. Apparently, the fact that the USN had so many subs that she could afford to send them to rescue downed pilotes had a certain demoralizing effect on Japan...)

IE : accidents and aircraft losses were bound to happen with the technology of the time. The only way to deal with it was to recover the precious pilots (which, unlike USN aircraft, can't be built in a matter of weeks). The USN efforts to save their pilots (including of course the whole ''using aircraft that don't burst into flame when looking at them because you consider armouring and self-sealing tanks as luxuries'' concept) was a constant in the war. The IJN much more cavalier attitude did not made sense with the extremely low amount of pilots they had (800-1000)

 

[krieger11b]

The USN efforts to save their pilots (including of course the whole ''using aircraft that don't burst into flame when looking at them because you consider armouring and self-sealing tanks as luxuries'' concept) was a constant in the war. The IJN much more cavalier attitude did not made sense with the extremely low amount of pilots they had (800-1000)

Self sealing gas tanks were not included on Japanese plane because they thought it was a luxury, it was for weight savings and increased fuel capacity as the Japanese knew they were going to need extreme range aircraft for something as gigantic as the Pacific. In the end it was a bad idea, but there were arguments to be made in not including them. Now giving Japanese pilots swords instead of parachutes, now that was incredibly stupid.

 

[BaronNoir]

Luxury in the sense ''we can afford to ignore them to save weight''.

While outranging the ennemy is a valid concept on paper, it was not such a supreme concept in the Pacific, especially when the USN had usually a much better idea of where the ennemy was thanks to SIGINT

 

[krieger11b]

Luxury in the sense ''we can afford to ignore them to save weight''.

While outranging the ennemy is a valid concept on paper, it was not such a supreme concept in the Pacific, especially when the USN had usually a much better idea of where the ennemy was thanks to SIGINT

Hmm luxury is still not the word I would use, anyways yes the US in addition to more resiliant planes, having SIGNIT did doom the entire concept of damage vulnerability for range as a viable thing. It would have made more sense to just have the scout planes not have self sealing fuel tanks maybe. However combat planes without them was kind of criminal of the Japanese Military. Hell the US pilots called the Betty bomber the "Flying Zippo."

I haven't had much luck in my search but what even was the technological ability of Japan to even build self sealing fuel tanks? The first patent on one was in 1917, but it was primitive and even barred from being made patent to keep it secret for a little while. So Japan may not have even had a half way decent self sealing gas tank to begin with.

 

[gagenater]

Hmm luxury is still not the word I would use, anyways yes the US in addition to more resiliant planes, having SIGNIT did doom the entire concept of damage vulnerability for range as a viable thing. It would have made more sense to just have the scout planes not have self sealing fuel tanks maybe. However combat planes without them was kind of criminal of the Japanese Military. Hell the US pilots called the Betty bomber the "Flying Zippo."

I haven't had much luck in my search but what even was the technological ability of Japan to even build self sealing fuel tanks? The first patent on one was in 1917, but it was primitive and even barred from being made patent to keep it secret for a little while. So Japan may not have even had a half way decent self sealing gas tank to begin with.

The Japanese most definately could make self sealing fuel tanks. They had a few planes with them. The key 'exotic' item required is lots of rubber and during WWII they controlled most of the world supply. That being said pre-war and early war the military planners may have been anticipating that it might be hard to get hold of or in short supply.

Edit: even the Zero itself got self sealing or at least armored fuel tanks towards the latter part of its production run. Complete book of WWII combat aircraft from the military press (edited)