Would you keep Rome or give it to Pope?

[jpinard]

I am King of Burgundy

Italy has been a fractured mess for a while. The Lombard unity LOL you see here was just recently semi-united. Africa took a chunk out of the middle of Italy very early in the game and it's been impossible to remove them. About 100 years ago, Saxon Pagans took over Rome and it's Duchy and became independent. I didn't realize til much later I could just invade them and did not require a fabricated claim because they weren't Catholic. I took Rome 20 years ago and a county near it, recently took Genoa and now I see in my Intrigue tab I can restore the Papacy.

Here's the thing. I don't need the Piety reward, I can make an anti-pope if I wanted and the Popes are always super old so the relationship bonus with the Pope would be short lived. But... the Crusade period just kicked in, and I'm unfamiliar with how all that works. Like if the Pope needs the Rome/Papacy to have more money/church power to work with to do the Crusades better? So should I keep Rome and continue taking over all of Lombardy/Italy or should I give it to the Pope?

Thanks for reading my mini-story!

 

[ragnarok246]

There's only 2 reasons to give Rome to a pope:

1) You're RP'ing a devout catholic / fraticelli
2) You want to vassilize the pope and thus need to be able to press an antipopes claim (which requires the pope be landed).

It's up to you and how you want to play the game. If you don't care about pope mechanics and aren't going to use Rome as a capital for yourself, give it to the pope and forget it. One thing to remember is, if you decide to keep it, and it falls under someone elses control, say a vassal king of Italy, he'll immediately and without hesitation take the decisions to give it to the pope before a nanosecond of game time passes. That's also important to know if you're playing as a vassal of Italy and somehow acquire Rome, you instantly lose it cos your liege gives it away >.>

On a different note, that's a shitty Kingdom of Aquitaine if I've ever seen one. I really do not like how so-called Kings own virtually nothing and not a single province in their de jure kingdom, and yet somehow can retain the title. Awful WAD garbage.

 

[bilbo2810]

On a different note, that's a shitty Kingdom of Aquitaine if I've ever seen one. I really do not like how so-called Kings own virtually nothing and not a single province in their de jure kingdom, and yet somehow can retain the title. Awful WAD garbage.

How so? It seems to me all/most of the de jure Kingdom of Aquitaine is under muslim control there. Well, I'm quite sure that even unlanded, the christian (former) King of Aquitaine would still have been considered the rightful King by all Christians in that situation, so it makes perfect sense to still have him possess the Kingdom title as long as he is landed...

 

[Cipher3]

GG with that Umayyad blob regardless.

 

[Asiak]

If I have captured Rome before he fills it with churches as a rule I do tend to keep it.

Fill it with cities for mad taxes.

 

[Aries666]

One thing to remember is, if you decide to keep it, and it falls under someone elses control, say a vassal king of Italy, he'll immediately and without hesitation take the decisions to give it to the pope before a nanosecond of game time passes. That's also important to know if you're playing as a vassal of Italy and somehow acquire Rome, you instantly lose it cos your liege gives it away.

Not sure about this I recently played as the count of Orvieto in 769. I conquered Rome pretty early before becoming king of Lombardy and my king never gave it away.

To the OP I would keep it and make Latinum my capital duchy with Rome as the capital, especially if there are free slots for castles.

Also you are going to be pretty high on the Ummyads holy war list so moving your demesne out of their range prevents you from getting wiped out if the war goes poorly.

 

[Robert II]

Go fraticelli make your own papacy with blackjack and hookers then give it to your new duke tier vassal heretic pope.

 

[BD13]

In my current game as an Italian Catholic vassal of the byz I gave it back. Started as a patrician in the amalfi republic from the Charlie start.

Moral authority was down to 2.3% after a Germanic adventurer took Rome. Got it back up to 77 until the king of France installed an antipope. Not looking good for the catholic faith.

 

[Silversweeeper]

I would suggest giving it to the Pope as you look like you could use the MA from him having a holy site. You want there to be frequent crusades right now if you are to survive the Umayyad onslaught.

 

[Heinrich4]

Your MA would increase (+5%) if the pope controls a holy site. And if the pope is landed he would get more piety (because of vassals buildings) so this would also increase your MA.

 

[MichaelStakely]

IMoral authority was down to 2.3% after a Germanic adventurer took Rome. Got it back up to 77 until the king of France installed an antipope. Not looking good for the catholic faith.

Since Conclave was released, every game I start has that happen with the King of France. I've had several promising games collapse because of the heretic revolts that spring up when Catholic MA bottoms out thanks to a combination of Anti-Popes and Andalusia taking Santiago before wiping out Asturias and marching into Aquitaine.

 

[Secret Master]

...heretic revolts that spring up when Catholic MA bottoms out thanks to a combination of Anti-Popes and Andalusia taking Santiago before wiping out Asturias and marching into Aquitaine.

Or, as I call it, a pretty good weekend in Vegas.

In all seriousness, if you are trying to power game, you should only land the Pope so you can turn around and vassalize him quickly. Having a vassal Pope, with proper clergy tax settings, should generate some nice revenue. If someone else has an anti-Pope, crush them to remove the competition. There's no point in letting the faith lose moral authority once you control the papacy.

(In fairness, I've never captured Rome as a Catholic before the Pope fills it up with bishoprics, so I never want it for myself.)

I should also point out one other tidbit:

In Conclave, having the Pope as a vasasl generates some interesting possibilities. He will often be a powerful vassal that wants to be on the council (unless you have several massive viceroyalties in play), so you plug him into the chaplain slot. Normally, you can't put powerful vassals in that slot, so it can be easier to neutralize factions this way (more powerful vassals on the council with proper laws = impotent factions).

 

[Dakilla TM]

What I would do is give the Bishopric of Rome to then Pope, but still control Tusculum and the rest of Latium.

 

[Aries666]

What I would do is give the Bishopric of Rome to then Pope, but still control Tusculum and the rest of Latium.

Wouldn't this result in the Pope hating you because he desires the county?

 

[Dakilla TM]

Wouldn't this result in the Pope hating you because he desires the county?

Nope, I checked and there's no modifier. The Pope will only be angry if he has a claim on the county or duchy.

 

[smellymummy]

Last time I handed Rome back to the pope, because I was a good catholic, was only after it switched to my culture. Been a while, but either I had made it my capital or I might of given the county to a high steward.

The whole reason was so I my same culture bishops would get that nice bonus for election chance, instead of cardinals being an almost italian only club.

 

[Dakilla TM]

Last time I handed Rome back to the pope, because I was a good catholic, was only after it switched to my culture. Been a while, but either I had made it my capital or I might of given the county to a high steward.

The whole reason was so I my same culture bishops would get that nice bonus for election chance, instead of cardinals being an almost italian only club.

The only times I've ever taken Rome as a Catholic was when I played as Lombards to Italians. This is super beneficial as 9/10 cardinals are your vassals directly or indirectly, plus when handing our titles to relatives, there's high chances of seeing a distant family member being the Preferatus.

Only give the Bishopric title to the Pope, keep the county and duchy. The Pope won't hate you unless he has a claim to Rome or Latium.

 

[SaphireSeas]

Here's the thing. I don't need the Piety reward, I can make an anti-pope if I wanted and the Popes are always super old so the relationship bonus with the Pope would be short lived. But... the Crusade period just kicked in, and I'm unfamiliar with how all that works. Like if the Pope needs the Rome/Papacy to have more money/church power to work with to do the Crusades better? So should I keep Rome and continue taking over all of Lombardy/Italy or should I give it to the Pope?

give b_roma, the holy site to the pope. it will help your moral authority.
The more land the pope has, the more likely he declares a crusade against an powerful opponent (I THINK...)
Your first priority should be saving Europe from the Umayyads.
Ideally the Pope crusading should mean nothing. You want to win every crusade so you get the land as long as no catholic ruler holds the title.
Remember people of infidel religions are more dangerous to you.

Good Luck, you may need it, Burgundian.

 

[jpinard]

give b_roma, the holy site to the pope. it will help your moral authority.
The more land the pope has, the more likely he declares a crusade against an powerful opponent (I THINK...)
Your first priority should be saving Europe from the Umayyads.
Ideally the Pope crusading should mean nothing. You want to win every crusade so you get the land as long as no catholic ruler holds the title.
Remember people of infidel religions are more dangerous to you.

Good Luck, you may need it, Burgundian.

So if the Pope calls an official Crusade we get to keep every single plot of land we take from the Umayyad's even without previous claims or fabricated claims? If so that is a sweet deal. But, things are a bit more complicated as there was a revolt in French Umayyad territory and I helped Aquitaine reclaim some of their land. This is current situation. Would you still give back Rome?

zoomed in:

You can see I also expanded into French Umayyad territory a bit as well.

 

[SaphireSeas]

I would always give back the barony. The county, I'd think how devout a catholic I was playing, because I RP a large number of characters.
If I was playing for power, I would never give the county back unless it was my culture (and even then, probably not).
The control of rome is critical for moral authority. if you control the county, you have quite some influence on catholic moral authority, especially with a one bishoprich pope in the area.

So if the Pope calls an official Crusade we get to keep every single plot of land we take from the Umayyad's even without previous claims or fabricated claims? If so that is a sweet deal. But, things are a bit more complicated as there was a revolt in French Umayyad territory and I helped Aquitaine reclaim some of their land. This is current situation. Would you still give back Rome?

If their had been a crusade for Aquataine, the gains from the crusade would be the winner of the Crusade UNLESS the crown of Aquataine was held by a catholic,(as it is at present, i assume).