Would you consider a gypsy culture group to be a bad idea?

[Kraska]

Except that is exactly what they have been treated as through out history.
No that's all Romani but there are several groups beyond the romani who have been considered gypsies or the z word, the uniting ting about them is their status as social outcasts. And don't know how things are where you live but if you call a romani in sweden the z word you'll get your nose broken. we had a store in my town called the tobacco z-word and they got sued by the romani community.

It doesn't matter who they've been treated throughout history, the term "tzigan" in itself is not derogatory for them and it's only some countries that are considering it derogatory just to create social tension. Most of the gypsies in Romania don't get offended when you call them "tzigan" and they won't break your nose. I am not going to turn this thread into a political debate and give the admins a reason to close it because I think that introducing a Gypsie culture in CK2 would make some very interesting games and would actually give the devs a lot of creative posibilities.
If done right, a Gypsie character could be really fun to play because it would force you to play the game in a non traditional way.

Also, I would advice you to actually come to a Balkanic country and live in a real Gypsie community before claiming you actually know anything about them. From what you've been describing, the Gypsies in Sweden are far from what the majority of Gypsies are.

Just to clarify one thing. Social outcast does not mean Gypsie and being a Gypsie does not automatically make you a social outcast. There were many Gypsies in the Middle Ages living at the courts of nobels, usually as musicians or craftsmen. While most Gypsie were mostly nomadic in that period many settled Gypsies existed as well and they now make the majority of the Gypsies.

 

[TheDungen]

It doesn't matter who they've been treated throughout history, the term "tzigan" in itself is not derogatory for them and it's only some countries that are considering it derogatory just to create social tension. Most of the gypsies in Romania don't get offended when you call them "tzigan" and they won't break your nose. I am not going to turn this thread into a political debate and give the admins a reason to close it because I think that introducing a Gypsie culture in CK2 would make some very interesting games and would actually give the devs a lot of creative posibilities.
If done right, a Gypsie character could be really fun to play because it would force you to play the game in a non traditional way.

Also, I would advice you to actually come to a Balkanic country and live in a real Gypsie community before claiming you actually know anything about them. From what you've been describing, the Gypsies in Sweden are far from what the majority of Gypsies are.

Just to clarify one thing. Social outcast does not mean Gypsie and being a Gypsie does not automatically make you a social outcast. There were many Gypsies in the Middle Ages living at the courts of nobels, usually as musicians or craftsmen. While most Gypsie were mostly nomadic in that period many settled Gypsies existed as well and they now make the majority of the Gypsies.

Or they are so used to you treating them like crap that they can't get mad about every single person that does it. There's a reason they're moving up here and it's not because they are perfectly content with the situation in south east Europe.

And really? I'd like sources on gypsies in royal courts.

 

[Tatterhood]

I think that CK2 (or CK3) could use a system for cultural/religious minorities in provinces and that a Roma culture would be a good addition once such a system existed. I'm not sure how you'd represent them in a manner that's both interesting and historically accurate without such a thing.

 

[Kraska]

Or they are so used to you treating them like crap that they can't get mad about every single person that does it. There's a reason they're moving up here and it's not because they are perfectly content with the situation in south east Europe.

And really? I'd like sources on gypsies in royal courts.

If you think that Gypsies are some poor, beaten down people who can't even react anymore to discrimination, you my friend have no idea what you're talking about. Actually you are being quite rude to them. Gypsies are proud people who managed to save their language, traditions, customs, songs and dress despite not having a country and despite being nomadic and not very liked by most people.
The reason why Gypsies go to Sweden is quite simple. There is no money in the Balkans. On the other hand Sweden seems more than willing to give free money to anybody claiming victimhood. Basically, the Gypsies are being clever, for which I can only applaud them.

What I meant by Gypsies living at noble courts is that many of them were forced to settle in villages and towns. They usually lived at the mansion of a boyar and worked as musicians or in the kitchens. They were not advisors to kings or anything but they were sometimes used as internal spies.

I want to clarify one thing. I have seen a tendency in you to start political debates and inflame people, which is probably the reason why you are on probation. I hope this post doesn't get taken down but I can assure you that I am not making the mistake of turning threads about CK2 into political debates again. So unless you have an opinion related to the game, this is going to be my last response to you.

 

[Kraska]

I think that CK2 (or CK3) could use a system for cultural/religious minorities in provinces and that a Roma culture would be a good addition once such a system existed. I'm not sure how you'd represent them in a manner that's both interesting and historically accurate without such a thing.

I agree with you on the minorities system. It would focus the game a bit more on internal politics and would make it a bit less of conquest-focused game. A bit like Victoria 2. Gypsies could work as temporary events. Since they were nomadic by nature, a provice could get an even like "Gypsie caravans arrived at the gates". Then you would get a Gypsie population in the county that has pros and cons. For example they could incread the moral of the pesantry and nobility with their songs and games but at the same time you would get a minus in levies because you need to send soldiers to keep the order.
Out of these temporary events you could find individuals that are particularly good at something (martial, learning etc.) and you could keep them at the court to get Gypsie characters. A bit like the Jews.

 

[TheDungen]

If you think that Gypsies are some poor, beaten down people who can't even react anymore to discrimination, you my friend have no idea what you're talking about. Actually you are being quite rude to them. Gypsies are proud people who managed to save their language, traditions, customs, songs and dress despite not having a country and despite being nomadic and not very liked by most people.
The reason why Gypsies go to Sweden is quite simple. There is no money in the Balkans. On the other hand Sweden seems more than willing to give free money to anybody claiming victimhood. Basically, the Gypsies are being clever, for which I can only applaud them.

What I meant by Gypsies living at noble courts is that many of them were forced to settle in villages and towns. They usually lived at the mansion of a boyar and worked as musicians or in the kitchens. They were not advisors to kings or anything but they were sometimes used as internal spies.

I want to clarify one thing. I have seen a tendency in you to start political debates and inflame people, which is probably the reason why you are on probation. I hope this post doesn't get taken down but I can assure you that I am not making the mistake of turning threads about CK2 into political debates again. So unless you have an opinion related to the game, this is going to be my last response to you.

Actually I am on probation for criticising EU4's DLC policy, oh and discussing the actions of the mods (which I assume includes getting witty about other people's probations) is against forum rules.

 

[Rags17]

Well this has gone on way too long !

FWIW attached are the files I created as part of my landless mod, separated for other use. There are three files in total - the culture file, the dynasties file and the localisation file with two entries - one for the culture group (Itinerant) and one for the culture (Romani), both can be easily edited to suit your own taste. Note that the culture and dynasty files both contain references so you can see where I got my info from.

Ideally I should include some events, decisions and culture modifiers (eg general opinion malus, intrigue bonus ?), but if anyone is interested in pushing this further then PM me, otherwise feel free to use, abuse or edit as you see fit.

Cheers


EDIT - I just realised that I set the culture to random = no which means there will be no random Romani created in game. If you want to change this then simply change the relevant entry on the romani_cultures.txt file.

 

[0A.D.]

Gypsies are nomadic, the famous caravan. You're trying to shoehorn a distinctly nomadic nation of people into a non-nomadic government. The good news is we do have a few various parallel systems for that in CK2. See nomad agitation, the cross cultural map, the settle tribe option, expel the jews edict, etc. Maybe the mod community can work out some type of solution or just make a Gypsy nomad group.

update: Historical Trivia: folk lore of European nobility had it to ease populace unrest at times the nobility would openly release Gypsy criminals in manhunts much like many non-Western cultures did. Currently the hunter trait/WOL path does not do this.

 

[Kraska]

Actually I am on probation for criticising EU4's DLC policy, oh and discussing the actions of the mods (which I assume includes getting witty about other people's probations) is against forum rules.

Only I'm not discussing whether the mods were right or wrong to put you on probation, just trying to guess why they would do it. Thinking is not against the forum rules as far as I know.

 

[Kraska]

Well this has gone on way too long !

FWIW attached are the files I created as part of my landless mod, separated for other use. There are three files in total - the culture file, the dynasties file and the localisation file with two entries - one for the culture group (Itinerant) and one for the culture (Romani), both can be easily edited to suit your own taste. Note that the culture and dynasty files both contain references so you can see where I got my info from.

Ideally I should include some events, decisions and culture modifiers (eg general opinion malus, intrigue bonus ?), but if anyone is interested in pushing this further then PM me, otherwise feel free to use, abuse or edit as you see fit.

Cheers

I think you should make a thread in the suggestions forum. The devs might actually like your idea and implement it in the game with the next DLC or patch.

 

[TheDungen]

Only I'm not discussing whether the mods were right or wrong to put you on probation, just trying to guess why they would do it. Thinking is not against the forum rules as far as I know.

Pretty sure speculating is covered too.

 

[Byzantium2000]

Pretty sure speculating is covered too.

Only I'm not discussing whether the mods were right or wrong to put you on probation, just trying to guess why they would do it. Thinking is not against the forum rules as far as I know.

Alright guys Alright settle it down this thread has been going prettey good so far and I would hate to see it closed due to your personal bickering on Romani treatment. Kraska wouldn’t want this to turn into your Vlach thread right?

 

[Baron of Red]

Im of the personal belief that having more cultures is the better for ck2 and i think it would be a great addition adding them to the game! of course I think they should add a hunchback of notre dame reference if they do.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

If you're asking why Roma have tended to be beat down I'd say it's because they're maintained a separate culture and language, and because they refuse to settle. In a settled agrarian society nomads will always be anathema because they disrupt the life of the community, occupy communal grazing ground etc.

Jews suffered in a similar way, but there they were deliberately, legally, disenfranchised in the Christian World by the Justinian Code.

 

[killerbee256]

who managed to save their language.

Many groups no longer know much less speak the Romani language. If "gypsy" culture is added I would hope their sisters groups in the middle east are added too.

 

[Kraska]

Alright guys Alright settle it down this thread has been going prettey good so far and I would hate to see it closed due to your personal bickering on Romani treatment. Kraska wouldn’t want this to turn into your Vlach thread right?

I said I won't reply to any more provocations and I won't. I can promise you this thread will not get closed because of me. I'm a good boy

Many groups no longer know much less speak the Romani language. If "gypsy" culture is added I would hope their sisters groups in the middle east are added too.

I am far from being an expert in Gypsie matters and I really have no idea how many of them still speak their language. According to Wikipedia (Very reliable, I know ) there are around 1.5 million speakers which is a very low number if we considered that there are about 20 million Gypsies around the world (again according to Wikipedia). But no matter how few the speaker, the language is very much alive and is spoken fluently either as a first of second language by some people. Efforts could be made in the future to spread the language if it becomes endangered.

Also, I don't think adding Levantine Gypsies would be a problem at all. That's why I think Gypsies should have their own cultural group.