would love to see for Poland Mod

[dralizaar]

if anyone has figured out the modding well enough id love to see a scenario grand campaign with a Poland at start with pre-1640 boundaries and claims <ie all poland lithuania ukkraine and most of north baltic coast..basically a what if poland had resovled the cossack treaties better in 1648 or neutralized the russian involvement in inciting the cossack rebellions which distracted poland's armies leaving hewr ripe for the deluge of swedish russian branderburgian moldavian wallachian and ottoman troops...which is what would be called the biggest turning point in polands decline ..she never rtecovered and lost nearly 1/3rd of her pop<some figures say 2/3rds after famine and such over next few years were figured in>

figuring such a start without that decline that invovled after that id expect poland to have contineud towards a demacratic government although without the external crisis spawned by the foreign invasions id expect it would more likely be a constitional monarchy....arguably anti-slavery <somne would argue that polish serfdom from 1600s up to early 1700 wasnt much better than slavery..but given the evolution of thought anf governemtn id think it be better represented to have a higher unrest<consciousness and militancy for the lower classes farmers and laborers..with slightly higher oens for ukraine and lithuania portions of poland to simulate problems of large nations with aristocratic leadership and many cultures...give poland a small standing army but almost all cavalry and dragoons <perhaps use her 1640 oob?> to simulate heavy use of horses and hussars <use these as attached briogades>

give poland bout same techs as prussia ..given that untill the delcine poland actually was even if not ahead of the german states in most trade, political and military techs..whiel german states tended be more advance in industry and education systems maybe social techs as well


i would really appreciate if someone good at modding could give it a whirl i havent fogured out the modding well enough to try....i dont require events and leaders etc...can always learn how to do that later..but id really like to begin a game as a large united free poland ...let me know if you can make it and either post the chanegs id need to cut and paste and directions on where i put em...or i can give you email to email em to me...thanx in advance

 

[Eldin]

Mmm... is this realistic AT ALL? I'm not much of a Poland-Lithuania history buff, but to my knowledge, late 17th century Poland was unsavable, a decentralised magnate-governed state that possessed no striking force when it mattered most. I don't think one man or event could undo what many others have tried to undo before. I think the Polish decline was really a much longer process and if you want to make a good althistory, you'd have to search those roots.

 

[dralizaar]

actually it is...the real decline didnt occur till after 1648 rebellions began to gut poland...the russians bought off many cossack chieftains int he ukraine and used them to instigate incidents which sparked the rebellion..right at a time when poland had finally negotiated a treaty to recognize ukrainian/cossack aristocracy and admit them to the polish aristocracy..which they had been agitating for for so long..this treaty would have ended much of the upper level revolts and organized troublemaking...as well as preventing russian expansion across the river...without the huge rebelliosn which tied up all of polish army and manpower polish troops would have been able to fend off the other nations easier and quicker...and likely as not those nations would not have attacked sicne the perceived distraction would not have been there..especially the russian invasion

the real question is whether polish governemtn changes would have evolved enough to avoid other disasters during the time period even should this big one not have occured..thats what what ifs are for...assuming the ukrainian merger/aceptance had occured this would have admitted "new blood" to the polish aristocracy added the the lithuanians it would hava changed the voting blocks and balance of power..foreign involvement in polish voting would likely not have become as big a problem as it was sicne poland being bigger and stronger would not have been as easily cowed and or influeneced by austria prussia or russia..so perhaps some reforms may have occured..but nonetheless adding more lords and voters would likely have forced a change in the polish point of view aristocracy rulling body...for one thing the ukrainians were from poorer backgrouns and recenly so...as such many might have remebered their beginnings and tried harder to bring reforms..this may have triggered more revolts later and maybe a future succession mvoement who knows...but id like a scenarion with a what if allowing for a positive outcome after the 1648 change..

after all people can do what ifs for byzantine why cant poland? after all poland was clsoer to ahcieving this dream than byzantines ever were to those people keep making fantasy what ifs for

 

[dralizaar]

also note striking power would have become moot...remeber while the polish king lacked much direct rule power and was limited in army size he could ask polish magnates to lend him troops...cossack cheiftains recenlty added to peerage at this time would have held greater loyalty to the kign of poland than others did..and likely would have lent more of their troops to aid him and the country in return for concessions...and forcing perhaps earlier conflicts int he house of lords as it were..with cossack troops to back the king its likely the minority of polish lords who sought reforms would have had better chance to force the issue and make em stick..its likely the king could have recovered some powers at expence of others..i suspect the golden rule would have been broken at least..giving rise to a more practical demacratic aristocracy by majority rule...hence a constitional monarchy..something the poles did come up with in the 1700's first in europe..also added manpower of cossack troops would have changed the equation of polish king elections as foreign troops would less likely be parked in warsaw to force election of their own chocies by foreign powers

like it state above this rebellion was a very pivotal poijnt in polish history as well as ryussin...given the treaty success without russian interference the whole balance of the region is chnaged and hence the viability of poland as a nation reguardless of its other flaws in its system..which given time would evolve like all nations tend to do

 

[McNaughton]

What might work is to incorporate this into the "What if Napoleon Won" mod. The Duchy of Warsaw, was basically a rekindled Poland.

 

[dralizaar]

hehe not for me..i could care less bout napoleon what id want is nota reboirn poland but a never fallen poland

heck for that matter i wouldnt mind a similar one for a china that had gonna outward expansion in 1421 and expanded rather than declined as a result...could be an interesting one..albeit id think china would be unbeatable if that was done ...poland at least would have austria ottoamns and russia hemming it in depsite her size

 

[Eldin]

http://www.ukans.edu/wcb/schools/CL...es/557lec3&4Decline&PartitionsofPoland[2].htm
http://wings.buffalo.edu/info-poland/classroom/longhist3.html

These are two articles dealing with the decline of the Polish state. The second article not very helpful, but the first one clearly states what I half expected: the magnates ran the country and they had no reason to support a Polish Monarchy, which was desperately short on funds. There might be a way to save Poland, but the state as it existed sin 1550 or so was doomed to failure, as was the HRE.

 

[Elias Tarfarius]

The only man that can save Poland is NAPOLEON!!!
(or a reincarnated Jan Sobeski :rofl: )

Besides, Boney was the only dictator that did good things for Poland (as opposed to Hitler and Stalin!). I'm fine with Poland existing, as long as they are loyal to the Emperor of the French .

 

[dralizaar]

well reguardless of opinions on what could have or would have been heres the settign i propose..


1648 the treaty is signed by the cossack hetmans agreeing to full membership in the seym of the commonwealth with full aristocratic rights and priviledges...russian insurgents unsuccessful in sparking revolts but instead are found out for the double dealers they are and quickly turned upon by the population of the ukraine..many executions and bloo9baths occur forcing survivors to flee to russia for safety..russia having been poised to invade reconsiders seeing that the cossacks are fully mobilized at thsi time purposuing and securing their powerbase in the ukraine with modest support from polish hussaria on loan from the king of poland...seeing the plosh armies small but vastly suprerior in skill and arms <they were at this time> to their own russian armies not tied down in revolts and seeing a large huge of highly traiend and motivated cossacks seeking revnege on russian intervention in their own politics...russia wisely decides not to invade. <seeing no oportunity to attack unopposed sweden decides not to invade..as does brandenburg>

The wallachian prince despite warnigns from the ottomans decides to raid poland anyway seeing all the polish armies patroling the russian and baltic borders and aiding the cossacks in puttign down their own rebellions...he figures to gain presitge glory and fame...maybe even a city or 2...his army is well led and highly motivated but he fails to take into account the polish armeis famed mobility as after he has raided several provinces and begins to lay seige to krackow a polish hussar army or 15000 aided by 10000 cossacks and 4000 infantry attacks and destroys his army capturing him..whereupon he is ransomed back to wallahcia in return for pledges of yearly tithes, trade access, and a semi formal vassalization

Within a few years lack of external threats of force cause greater tensions and focus on local issues in the seym...old tiemrs of polish nobility..always sore about sharing power witht he lithuanian aristocracy..become increasingly frustrated with and annoyed at the "upstart" ukrainian lords that now sit among them...several attempts to pass bills unfavorable to the ukraine have been blocked..as have several to favor polish heredity...either by solely ukrainian opposition or by coalition of lithuania and ukrainian lords...in 1656 a revolt breaks out as the seym is forced once again to retire without passing bills due to the golden rule being employed by a lithuanian to oppose a new law granting greater voting rights to "old" blood..in effect an attempt to make a upper hjouse of lords seperate from the regular house..and giving them more specific but greater power..thus undercutting the lesser lords which are now 2/3rds not polish..a blatant attempt by polish magnates to regain total control of the commonwealth

Within hours of the objection 10 unflagged riders racing throuygh the streets of warsaw ride down and saber the lithuanian noble and 3 of his bodyguards befor dying to the last man as enraged guards from many lords hacked them down...a riot quickly errupted and streets became cordoned offas various factions and alliances of lrods seek to control a section of the city in which to stay safe and dicuss future..many "skirmishes " are foguth escalating gradually and bloodshed spills in the heart of the city as each lord calls in house troops to aid them..several lrods on both sides are killed...the lithuanian and ukrainian lrods are losing ground however as polish lords have shorter distances to call their troops from meanign they can respond quicker...things seem doomed for the liths/uks until the polish king behind closed doors signes a treaty with the lords of ukraine and lithuania granting promises of future power rights and presitige..even some reassigned lands..in return for supporting his bid for power...his trump card is secretly he has moved his army of hussars into warsaw udner cover of night...when dawn comes his troops launch a attack on the lords troops as they purpuse the lith/uks as they retreat out into the fields outside the city limits..being exposed in pursuit of a fleeing foe they thought beaten they are unprepared as from behind they are smashed by hussars led by king of poland..and driven into a suddenly stiff resistance of the liths and uks


In return to saving their power and new lands...the king reassumes many of the broken powers of state including more miltary control, rights to tax and call up reserves, limits on magnate personal armies sizes, break9ing of magnate immunity to law and taxation..in addition he has the house of lords retained but has the golden ruke abolished...and splits many of their powers with the newer powerful house of commons now fiulled with many of the newly rich merchants and such <new laws taxing the lrods and magnates allows the kign toi inviest national cash into trade and reforms and infrastructure..making many merchants and bankers richer immeasurably>..the king still can be overidden by majority votes on major issues by house of lords and commons <bills pass thoruhg both to overturn him> but he has broad emergency powers now

Poland with larger state treasury and wealth comign faster into country aboard rather than only ion hands of few..expands its education system, roads, trade, investing in and expanding cities in the ukraine and lithuania...polish farmers are released from servitude to their landowners and now are paid and allwoed to own land...many move into the ukraine to farm and expand her borders east protected by the large border guards <former cossack units now under kings direct control> making the lands richer and grow sooner>...with better education, more money, lack of major wars invading them, greater trade..poland retains its power base and matures..her people expand and fiill her lands rather than dying off as they did historically..but due to lack of empire building desires of the polish people and commonwealth peoples...no attempt to invade russia is made or to go west and poland fights few minor wars maintaining her borders of the ukraine lithuanian retains the baltic andpoland proper...ithe only area of land growth has been east as raiding parties of tartars are beaten back time and time again by the cossacks who migrate east claiming new lands from the various tribes being followed by steady stream of commonwealth farmers seeking land to claim...



this is the premise sotry im using all im asking is someone to help do the scenarion data file to give them their lands at start so i can play it in future ill learn and create events leaders etc..storyline isnt detailed or spelled out the way i want yet..im lousy typist and would take me forever to go into detail but if anyone can help me thats great..im not asking you to agree or disagree with me on anything..i dont care ..i just want help so i can play it

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by Elias Tarfarius
The only man that can save Poland is NAPOLEON!!!
(or a reincarnated Jan Sobeski :rofl: )

How about just the original Jan Sobieski?

The idea for the divergence is that Sobieski uses his power after the Seige of Vienna to reform the Polish state along the French model. Much of Louis XIV's reforms were aimed at subordinating a previously powerful & independent nobility to the centralized absolutist monarchy. Sobieski did a number of superficially Sun-King-like things (I've toured both Wilanow & Versailles) - why not immitate him politically as well. So, you could have by 1836 a Poland whose territory is more or less as it was in Sobieski's day and its power in the "major" category. Of course, you will need to figure out how that impacted the major wars of the 18th Century and so what the rest of Europe looks like? What would an autocratic Polish state have done in all those wars? What would happen to it in the Napoleonic Wars? Would the autocratic regime survive, or get revolutionized like France?

Actually, one way to answer all this is to play a game of EU2 to the end as Poland, avoiding "gamy" behavior like conquering all of Europe (restrict yourself to defensive wars and don't aggrandize your territory immodestly). Then you can just assume nothing changed in 15 years and write the "Poland Survives" scenario based on the end-state of that EU2 game.

 

[unmerged(16533)]

I am going to make a Poland mod if I find some time, but my idea is a bit different:
1) Poland is a --> satelite country <-- of Russia in as it was after the congress of Vienna
2) Polish borders are the same as Congress Poland
3) I am going add some polish political parties
* Towarzystwo Patriotyczne: pro-military socialists
* Kaliszanie: liberals, pacifists, laissez faire etc.
* Conservatists - pro-russian
4) I am going to add some polish military leaders: Skrzynecki, Pradzynski, Bem, Chlopicki
5) Poland shall have tertitorial claims on provinces that belonged to it before the first partition (1772)
6) P. is in military alliance with Russia
7) The game starts in 1836 as the GC because there's no unlimited patch available - we've just got to imagine that the November uprising (1830/31) didn't take place at all.
8) Political rights: landed, political parties: right to ban

I must think about political life, economy and social reforms. See ya!

 

[beezneez]

i have a hunch paradox will be releasing in one of the upcoming vicky patches an EU2 to vicky converter. you'll then be able to take a game of eu2 to end and bring that state of the game into vicky, thus having the poland you want, or aany country. there was talk of this and i hope it hasn't been shelved.

 

[John Poole]

Originally posted by twokey
I am going to make a Poland mod if I find some time, but my idea is a bit different:
1) Poland is a --> satelite country <-- of Russia in as it was after the congress of Vienna
2) Polish borders are the same as Congress Poland
3) I am going add some polish political parties
* Towarzystwo Patriotyczne: pro-military socialists
* Kaliszanie: liberals, pacifists, laissez faire etc.
* Conservatists - pro-russian
4) I am going to add some polish military leaders: Skrzynecki, Pradzynski, Bem, Chlopicki
5) Poland shall have tertitorial claims on provinces that belonged to it before the first partition (1772)
6) P. is in military alliance with Russia
7) The game starts in 1836 as the GC because there's no unlimited patch available - we've just got to imagine that the November uprising (1830/31) didn't take place at all.
8) Political rights: landed, political parties: right to ban

I must think about political life, economy and social reforms. See ya!

About time! How annoying is it by the way that if you are Krakow you cannot create a new Polish republic or get Cores on the Polish provinces? The Congress Polish Kingdom you get from releasing it from Russia only has one Political Party which is kind of funny, you can give the POPs all the voting rights they want...when there is only one party there is only one choice

I dont think I like the idea of Poland getting cores on Lithuanian provinces like Vilnius. Granted it was part of Poland before the 3rd partition (and the 4th partition in 1939 for that matter) but I think it preferred being Lithuanian...as misguided as that is

As far as Political Life, it would be a very conservative monarchist state under Russian vassalage. Remember the Tsar is the King! Also Congress Poland has a very low population in Vic, it is about half of what the Republic of Krakow has and it is in 11 provinces to Krakow's 1!

 

[unmerged(16533)]

Originally posted by John Poole

I dont think I like the idea of Poland getting cores on Lithuanian provinces like Vilnius. Granted it was part of Poland before the 3rd partition (and the 4th partition in 1939 for that matter) but I think it preferred being Lithuanian...as misguided as that is

Hi! First of all thanks for interest. As for the case of Lithuania - it was strongly influenced by polish culture and considered to be an integral part of Poland during the whole XIX century. Even the action of polish national poem 'Pan Tadeusz' is situated somewhere near Vilnius. A lot of polish nobles lived there, but on the other side lithuanians were usually peasants who had to work for their polish masters. The political parties of that time had 'restoration of Poland in borders from 1772 in their programme' - Towarzystwo Patriotyczne, Hotel Lambert. The problem is that the demografic data from the game is not accurate for lithuanian, ukrainian and byellorussian (how the hell, do you spell that ) provinces. Actually a lot of poles lived there at the time. Imho both Poland and Lithuania should have claims on Vilnius as they had both in 1920's when their bilateral relations were very, very unfriendly (in 1927 there was even the possibility of war between the two) due to polish annexation of Vilnius in 1922.

Originally posted by John Poole
Also Congress Poland has a very low population in Vic, it is about half of what the Republic of Krakow has and it is in 11 provinces to Krakow's 1!

Have you got any trustworthy historical data about the population of congress Poland ?

Bye

 

[John Poole]

Originally posted by twokey
Hi! First of all thanks for interest. As for the case of Lithuania - it was strongly influenced by polish culture and considered to be an integral part of Poland during the whole XIX century. Even the action of polish national poem 'Pan Tadeusz' is situated somewhere near Vilnius. A lot of polish nobles lived there, but on the other side lithuanians were usually peasants who had to work for their polish masters. The political parties of that time had 'restoration of Poland in borders from 1772 in their programme' - Towarzystwo Patriotyczne, Hotel Lambert. The problem is that the demografic data from the game is not accurate for lithuanian, ukrainian and byellorussian (how the hell, do you spell that ) provinces. Actually a lot of poles lived there at the time. Imho both Poland and Lithuania should have claims on Vilnius as they had both in 1920's when their bilateral relations were very, very unfriendly (in 1927 there was even the possibility of war between the two) due to polish annexation of Vilnius in 1922.

Yeah I suppose but its problomatic in Vic because very little of Vilnius is actually Polish. As you said this might need to be corrected.

As for the population of Congress Poland, I will look around but according to this website the population of Warsaw was only 1 million by 1924, which would indicate it was a pretty small city in 1836. Perhaps Congress Poland WAS very small population wise in 1836.

Incidently this is what Victoria considers Poland:

Suwaki, Lomza, Siedlice, Spiff, Plock, Warszawa, Radom, Kielce, Lodz, Kalisz, Skierniewice from Russia

Przemysl, Tarnow, Nowy Sacz, Zator, Cieszyn from Austria

Danzig, Elbling, Torun, Deutsch Krone, Bromberg, Gniezno, Posen and Kallowicz from Prussia

and Krakow from Krakow

 

[unmerged(22914)]

Polulation of congress poland was about 4,3 million in 1838. Population of Warsaw in 1846 was 154,000 and population of Krakow (only city) in 1843 was 43,000.

Found on http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populframe.html

 

[unmerged(22116)]

Population of Poland

Population of Congress Poland:
1827 - 4 000 032
1844 - 4 767 000

War of 1831 never fought. Polish army still exist: 3 divisions of infantry (with artillery) and 1 division of cavalry with hussars. Organisation and/or morale level should be tweeked to level of russian guards units (polish army "fight like french in their best years" - opinion of russian chief of staff - 1831).

 

[unmerged(16533)]

THANK YOU ! Very very much ! It's hard to find such data. Tomorrow I'll try to implement that to the mod - I don't have a lot of time recently - I have a test on international relations tomorrow. Right now I must think about Briand-Kellog treaty or Japanese invasion on Manchuria

As for polish army - it should have high morale but lower organisation imho

I have to search for data containing percentage of Poles in provinces in Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine.

Thanks again!

 

[unmerged(9574)]

Everyone who want to play Poland in Grand Camaign should download this scenario:
http://upload.saiyanarena.com/uploads/Polska_Victoria.rar

 

[unmerged(16533)]

Thanks! I'm gonna try it tomorrow cos' right now all I think about is sleeping, but so far from the scripting I've noticed couple of things. Where can I comment this mod and to whom send my suggestions ???

Cheers