Would France Sacrifice Poland for a USSR alliance

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Sunforged General

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Edit: tl;dr: Given a few changes, yes they would.

Well, depending when we start fooling around in history the poles should worry more about being thrown to the germans by the french for an alliance. Or at least to be coerced into concessions. Several of the concessions to Hitler were driven by the want to have a strong buffer against the Soviets and communist influence. And Hitler as a rabid anti-communist was seen as the perfect man for that. And the sentiment persisted (but lost popularity) until '39 and the war declarations.

That said, if the french take a hard-left turn or grow considerably more hawkish in their outlook (say enough people are in favor for immediate aggression upon Rhineland), the answer could very well be "yes". The french logic would be that the russians can stall the germans long enough for the french army to strike the killing blow.

Of course, hindsight applies to both. And in HOI4, communist France can ally the UdSSR.

Sigh. As already pointed out, quite a bit of that "polish land" was seen at the time as "german land held by Poland" not only by germans. And if you want to peddle polish maximalist rethoric, I'll remind you that thats only funny as long as you stand on the winning side.
Do remember that the nazis did not start out as their 1945 incarnation. There were people like Hermann "I decide who is a jew" Göring or the Strasser brothers. So, if needs must, you can rewrite the ideology to accomodate the poles. I can think of at least two ways ad hoc. Of course, both include blaming someone else for the previous polish-german conflicts. No prizes for guessing whom. And of course its hypcritical. But hey, ideologues have proven to be quite good at that sort of thing.
In addition, a nazi-polish alliance would require some shifts in the internal power structure of both nations. And yes, the poles would probably loose Danzig and Posen. But in turn there will be consoldiation with lithuanian (port), russian (territory) and other stuff (some extraterritoriality). Funnyly enough, it could actually work out. Would suck for any non-pole or -german.

And add that. The japanese were still seen as primitives. And the whole anti-communist thingy.
Hitler was pretty adamant about the poles being no better than the Russians, since they too were Slavs. Also not sure where you got the idea everyone thought Polish Land is German Land, since Poland was created by the Treaty of Versailles, with support from Britain and France.
 

permanently_afk

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Hitler was pretty adamant about the poles being no better than the Russians, since they too were Slavs.
You mean the guy who declared people "honorary aryans" (e.g. Eberhard Milch) for political considerations and flip-flopped who excactly was and wasn't untermensch. <sarcasm> Sure, he'll take ideological purity over an alliance every day </sarcasm>. The ideologue is Himmler. He'll be sidelinded in such a scenario.
So, in the light of the sources brought by @Fulmen and you not having anything to counter other than insisting that the 1945 ideology applies in an alternate history scenario in 1933 (or 36) I'll take Fulmens argument. So yeah, a polish-german alliance would have been in the cards. Post-facto polish rethoric about them having always opposed the nazis is about as true as every french having been in the resistance.
Also not sure where you got the idea everyone thought Polish Land is German Land, since Poland was created by the Treaty of Versailles, with support from Britain and France.
Poland wasn't created by the ToV. It was created by the German Empire at Brest-Litowsk as the Kingdom of Poland. Puts grey into the history, which isn't wanted by some. You would do very well to remember that, regardless of what they told you in school.
That failure of a treaty was supported by Britain and France as long as it was convienient for them. The poles regarded Danzig as theirs, but it wasn't turned over to them. Depending on who you ask when parts of the corridor should have remained with Germany. So, in light of your outright false claims regarding the genesis of interwar Poland, do prove that there was no opposition within the Entente to the land distribution between Germany and Poland.
 
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Sunforged General

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You mean the guy who declared people "honorary aryans" (e.g. Eberhard Milch) for political considerations and flip-flopped who excactly was and wasn't untermensch. <sarcasm> Sure, he'll take ideological purity over an alliance every day </sarcasm>. The ideologue is Himmler. He'll be sidelinded in such a scenario.
So, in the light of the sources brought by @Fulmen and you not having anything to counter other than insisting that the 1945 ideology applies in an alternate history scenario in 1933 (or 36) I'll take Fulmens argument. So yeah, a polish-german alliance would have been in the cards. Post-facto polish rethoric about them having always opposed the nazis is about as true as every french having been in the resistance.

Poland wasn't created by the ToV. It was created by the German Empire at Brest-Litowsk as the Kingdom of Poland. Puts grey into the history, which isn't wanted by some. You would do very well to remember that, regardless of what they told you in school.
That failure of a treaty was supported by Britain and France as long as it was convienient for them. The poles regarded Danzig as theirs, but it wasn't turned over to them. Depending on who you ask when parts of the corridor should have remained with Germany. So, in light of your outright false claims regarding the genesis of interwar Poland, do prove that there was no opposition within the Entente to the land distribution between Germany and Poland.
I wont claim a German Polish Alliance is impossible, but rather, just infinitely less likely than a French-USSR alliance. To make it happen, you basically have to have Hitler assassinated and replaced with Goering. Then you have to remove all the politicians in Poland which would refuse giving up any Polish Territory for an Alliance, which is almost all of them.

Also your claims are irrelevant, yes, the treaty of Brest-Litovsk created a "kingdom of Poland", which was later abolished and replaced by the Republic of Poland at Versailles.

According to Margaret MacMillan, "The rebirth of Poland was one of the great stories of the Paris Peace Conference." Margaret MacMillan, Paris 1919: Six Months that Changed the World (2001), p. 208.
 

Ffire

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I wont claim a German Polish Alliance is impossible, but rather, just infinitely less likely than a French-USSR alliance.

I must respectfully say that you're very wrong here. There was negociations between Poland and Germany until 39 which were close to succeed. The german were ready to respect the free city of danzig if poland allow them to march their armies through. The poles feared more the soviet, because they knew there was little room for any deal with them after the polish soviet war in the 20s. They even talked about how they would attack and split USSR territory between them. They failed because the polish leaders never agreed with the idea of german soldiers walking through their country, even if they were going to fight the hated soviets.
 
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Fulmen

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So yeah, a polish-german alliance would have been in the cards.

I wouldn't go as far as saying it was in the cards, as I don't think the Poles would've ever agreed to it, but it was something the Germans initially pursued.
 

Sunforged General

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I must respectfully say that you're very wrong here. There was negociations between Poland and Germany until 39 which were close to succeed. The german were ready to respect the free city of danzig if poland allow them to march their armies through. The poles feared more the soviet, because they knew there was little room for any deal with them after the polish soviet war in the 20s. They even talked about how they would attack and split USSR territory between them. They failed because the polish leaders never agreed with the idea of german soldiers walking through their country, even if they were going to fight the hated soviets.
I dont see how a Polish German Alliance could ever happen when the regime in Berlin was dead set on eastern expansion. Bit I digress, the French-USSR alliance will always be more likely, simply because it actually happened (until it fell apart), while the Polish-German alliance never happened.
 

parkerg12

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Most Historical events happen through a Chain of Cause and effect. if you go back far enough you can make any outcome seem to have a logic too it. 1936 doesn't work? try 1932? nope not right ok, Try 1930? nope hmmm 1918! dang ok lets go with 1218. Fun stuff alt history can be.
 
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Paul.Ketcham

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The problem with this alliance is the reason it failed historically: Poland's stance on the issue ultimately determines how acceptable this is to France, because while the French might be willing to let Soviet influence expand westward, they wouldn't be willing to force the issue if Poland flatly refused to let Soviet troops into their country.

Aka, if Poland says no (like they did historically), then the Soviets would have to invade. That means France is supporting a Soviet offensive war against Poland. While the Poles might not want to join an alliance with Germany under normal circumstances, they might be willing to let German troops into the country when they end up at war with the USSR and have no allies anywhere else to turn to (while Britain wouldn't back the Soviets, they definitely wouldn't oppose the French either, and likely would just sit the whole thing out).

Remember when it comes to Hitler (who speaks of people more readily believing a "big lie" than a small one) and the Poles, that he had this to say in public circumstances (in 1938):

“The most difficult problem that confronted me was that of our relations with Poland. There was a danger that Poles and Germans would regard each other as hereditary enemies. I wanted to prevent this. I know well enough that I should not have been successful if Poland had had a democratic constitution. For these democracies which indulge in phrases about peace are often the most bloodthirsty agitators for war.

In Poland, there ruled no democracy, just a man. And with him I succeeded, in precisely 12 months, in coming to an agreement which, for ten years in the first instance, entirely removed the danger of a conflict. We are all convinced that this agreement will bring lasting pacification. We realise that here are two peoples which must live together and neither of which can do away with the other. A people of 33 million will always strive for an outlet to the sea.

A way for understanding, then, had to be found. It has been found and it will be even further extended. Certainly, things were hard in this area. The nationalities and small national groups frequently quarrelled among themselves. But the main fact is that the two governments, and all reasonable and clear-sighted persons among the two peoples and in the two countries, possess the firm will and determination to improve their relations.

It was a real work of peace, of more worth than all the chattering in the League of Nations Palace at Geneva.”

Recall that Hitler was a professional liar, and he'd already signed a nonaggression pact with Poland in 1935 (and stated clearly that he had no intent to annex Austria, or to take further conquests after the Sudetenland). He would subsequently sign a nonaggression pact that included a lot more than just noninterference between the Soviet Union and Germany (including arms sales of substantial naval equipment, i.e. the heavy cruiser Lützow and a dozen 15-inch guns for the Kronshtadt battlecruisers, as well as blueprints for the Hipper and Bismarck). German forces even abandoned captured territory in Lwow to the USSR in exchange for securing control over oil fields in Lublin (the borders of Poland were not exactly set in stone with the original treaty, and moved around once the two powers occupied Poland).

So the real question goes back to Poland, who on the one hand was unwilling to let Soviet troops into the country; if they won't let German troops either, then the country just gets steamrolled, with Germany likely not attacking at all and just using it as a propaganda tool against the Allies.
 

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I have thought about a possible timeline, where the republic of Spain won the scw with the soviet help. After the scw, communist influence might be able to create an alliance between FRA and SOV.
In that case, Cze will still be annexed by GER but the with FRA stop protecting POL and the communist threat from both side of Europe, POL may join the Axis with ITA, HUN and BUL. ENG will only have ROM and YUG as direct allies.
imagine SOV SPR FRA + ENG ROM YUG vs GER ITA HUN BUL
After the war, ITA AUS HUN BUL YUG ROM GRE will be democratic while other parts of europe will be in Comintern (which will not be dismissed). With the full industrial power of GER and the new friendship between FRA and its former colonies (decolonized but with deep connection), things might be much different.