Worst President in US History

[Finnish Dragon]

From my point of view, as a Polish, the worst was FDR. Stalin's puppet who sold half of Europe to commies. No coincidence he was highly respected (we got streets in many cities named after him) and hold up as example how US-USRR relations should look like

As a Finn I understand why Poles now don´t like FDR. The truth was that FDR was naive regarding Stalin:

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

I just have a hunch that Stalin is not that kind of man. Harry [Hopkins] says he's not and that he doesn't want anything except security for his own country, and I think that if I give him everything I possibly can and ask nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he won't try to annex anything and will work with me for a world of democracy and peace.

Response to advice from Ambassador William C. Bullitt to pursue a containment policy against the Soviet Union (1943), quoted in his account in Life (23 August 1948)

We should remember that FDR grossly misjudged Stalin. Stalin did annex the Baltic states, took the eastern part of Poland, around 10% of Finnish territory and Bessarabia from Romania. In addition to that he did puppet many nations in Eastern Europe as well and that includes Poland.

 

[cacra]

What should he have done? Declare open war on a Maoist-Stalinist coalition? Do you realize how long and bloody a war that would have been? Do you realize what it would have cost us? For starters we would have had to have propped up the old European empires just to have friendly bases to fight, as well as turn Germany and Japan around to join the anti-Communist coalition, and even if we succeeded at that.. LAND. WAR. IN. ASIA. Not a great idea at the best of times and especially not with Russia and half of China as direct enemies.

With the weakness of the old Empires, the strength of resurgent Red-aided anti-Imperialist movements in the colonies, the weakness of Chiang and the strength of Mao, and Russia sitting secure behind its satellites able to fuel and arm the whole mess, we could have entered a situation very easily where all of Asia was one giant Vietnam.

It might surprise some people to learn that there are things even a superpower can't do, but stopping the spread of Communism into Asia and Eastern Europe might have been barely within our means even if we used the nuclear bomb, and once the Soviets got nukes of their own, it was beyond our capability entirely.

No, no war in Russia. Although Patton did believe a war could be won in a few weeks (without nukes) due to the overextension of Soviet supply lines, it would have resulted in anarchy throughout Asia.

FDR's mistake was trusting Stalin to hold 'free and fair' elections throughout the occupied territory. The terms of Yalta and Tehran were not generous considering the enormous losses Russia experienced, however they were extremely generous considering the present balance of power.

 

[Imgran]

Without war, the USSR achieves every concession FDR gave him by saber-rattling anyway.

 

[Yakman]

Without war, the USSR achieves every concession FDR gave him by saber-rattling anyway.

Yup.

 

[Imgran]

Frankly I think the Western strategy at the time was simply to concede so much to Stalin that he couldn't consolidate it until they were ready and able to respond to him when he came back for another bite.

That may sound shortsighted, and it certainly doomed generations of Europeans to decades of oppressive rule, that can't be denied, but the immediate aftermath of WWII was pretty much the Soviet high water mark, especially after the Sino-Soviet split which was really inevitable from day 1

The next time Stalin came back at the West was the Berlin blockade, and the West was able to respond in a way that forced Stalin to back down. Making big concessions early stopped Soviet momentum, and the Soviet leadership never got it started again.

 

[stevieji]

As a Finn I understand why Poles now don´t like FDR. The truth was that FDR was naive regarding Stalin:

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt



We should remember that FDR grossly misjudged Stalin. Stalin did annex the Baltic states, took the eastern part of Poland, around 10% of Finnish territory and Bessarabia from Romania. In addition to that he did puppet many nations in Eastern Europe as well and that includes Poland.

To be fair - and speaking as an Englishman - that was mainly Churchill's fault. He more or less gave Stalin the theatre of influence that became the Warsaw Pact, in a note handed to him at the Yalta conference.

 

[Dinglehoff]

Frankly I think the Western strategy at the time was simply to concede so much to Stalin that he couldn't consolidate it until they were ready and able to respond to him when he came back for another bite.

That may sound shortsighted, and it certainly doomed generations of Europeans to decades of oppressive rule, that can't be denied, but the immediate aftermath of WWII was pretty much the Soviet high water mark, especially after the Sino-Soviet split which was really inevitable from day 1

The next time Stalin came back at the West was the Berlin blockade, and the West was able to respond in a way that forced Stalin to back down. Making big concessions early stopped Soviet momentum, and the Soviet leadership never got it started again.

I don't really buy the clairvoyant appeasement theory for postwar Europe. They'd have to know the future for it to make any sense. I'd put it more on a recognition of geographical power position and a naive hope in the west for a return to a conventional geopolitical diplomatic order in the east, instead of the ideological assimilation that happened.

 

[cacra]

To be fair - and speaking as an Englishman - that was mainly Churchill's fault. He more or less gave Stalin the theatre of influence that became the Warsaw Pact, in a note handed to him at the Yalta conference.

Is this the same Churchill that proposed Operation Unthinkable?

 

[Yakman]

To be fair - and speaking as an Englishman - that was mainly Churchill's fault. He more or less gave Stalin the theatre of influence that became the Warsaw Pact, in a note handed to him at the Yalta conference.

what was he supposed to do? fight another war?

ridiculous.

the soviets were going to dominate the East. If anything, Churchill was trying to negotiate for a Western foothold, not trying to appease Stalin by handing the east to him.

 

[yerm]

what was he supposed to do? fight another war?

ridiculous.

the soviets were going to dominate the East. If anything, Churchill was trying to negotiate for a Western foothold, not trying to appease Stalin by handing the east to him.

Basically correct. The only way to keep the soviets out of Poland was going to be to get to Warsaw before they did... which obviously implies needing to soundly defeat Germany before the soviets get there before that. If the big three had just abandoned any diplomatic promises and divided Europe based on where their armies met you'd at best be looking at an iron curtain that ran along the Elbe. At best.

 

[stevieji]

what was he supposed to do? fight another war?

ridiculous.

the soviets were going to dominate the East. If anything, Churchill was trying to negotiate for a Western foothold, not trying to appease Stalin by handing the east to him.

I made no judgement about the act, merely placed the responsibility where it belonged - Churchill, rather than Roosevelt. It does seems clear, though, that Stalin was a little surprised to be handed almost everything he could possibly have wished for - Churchill's main (if not sole) concern, it seems, being to save Greece for democracy. You may be right that he was only recognising the status quo, but don't forget that Britain entered the war on Poland's behalf - and Churchill signed it away on the back of an envelope. Literally.

Is this the same Churchill that proposed Operation Unthinkable?

Yes - and the same Churchill who immediately started bleating about an 'iron curtain' - which he himself had defined. Again, I'll admit that this may well have been the best deal to be had, but he certainly didn't need to make it at that point - and certainly not in such a grubby, underhanded and arbitrary manner.

 

[Arilou]

I made no judgement about the act, merely placed the responsibility where it belonged - Churchill, rather than Roosevelt. It does seems clear, though, that Stalin was a little surprised to be handed almost everything he could possibly have wished for - Churchill's main (if not sole) concern, it seems, being to save Greece for democracy. You may be right that he was only recognising the status quo, but don't forget that Britain entered the war on Poland's behalf - and Churchill signed it away on the back of an envelope. Literally.

I suspect Churchill was thinking mostly in old-fashioned british imperialist terms. Poland was far away and mostly a concern to the french anyway with Germany beaten, but Greece was a british interest.

 

[cacra]

Yes - and the same Churchill who immediately started bleating about an 'iron curtain' - which he himself had defined. Again, I'll admit that this may well have been the best deal to be had, but he certainly didn't need to make it at that point - and certainly not in such a grubby, underhanded and arbitrary manner.

This refutes your original point that Churchill 'gave Stalin his sphere of influence.'

Churchill was prepared to go to war with Stalin to save Europe from communism.

 

[Arilou]

This refutes your original point that Churchill 'gave Stalin his sphere of influence.'

Churchill was prepared to go to war with Stalin to save Europe from communism.

After he agreed to give it to him.

Consistency was not one of Winston's virtues, except when it came to hating germany.

 

[cacra]

After he agreed to give it to him.

Consistency was not one of Winston's virtues, except when it came to hating germany.

Source please.

 

[olm]

I made no judgement about the act, merely placed the responsibility where it belonged - Churchill, rather than Roosevelt. It does seems clear, though, that Stalin was a little surprised to be handed almost everything he could possibly have wished for - Churchill's main (if not sole) concern, it seems, being to save Greece for democracy. You may be right that he was only recognising the status quo, but don't forget that Britain entered the war on Poland's behalf - and Churchill signed it away on the back of an envelope. Literally.

Churchill's percentages agreement only covered 5 countries: Bulgaria and Romania (to USSR), Greece (to West), Yugoslavia and Hungary (50% split). Implying that it gave Stalin "everything he could possibly have wished for" or "signed away Poland" is just false.

 

[Herbert West]

Yes - and the same Churchill who immediately started bleating about an 'iron curtain' - which he himself had defined. Again, I'll admit that this may well have been the best deal to be had, but he certainly didn't need to make it at that point - and certainly not in such a grubby, underhanded and arbitrary manner.

Churchill, a hypocrite and a backstabber? Say it aint so

 

[Yakman]

Churchill, a hypocrite and a backstabber? Say it aint so

i didn't write that.

 

[dragoon9105]

Considering that America is in fact a Democracy and Pre-50's america had a generally middling to favorable view of soviet Russia, FDR taking a hard line in negotiations or even threatening war simply wan't an option. If FDR came back to the states and said "Right were going to war with Russia" he'd find next to no support, everyone wanted the war to end, not to start a new world war immediately after the last one.

 

[stevieji]

Churchill's percentages agreement only covered 5 countries: Bulgaria and Romania (to USSR), Greece (to West), Yugoslavia and Hungary (50% split). Implying that it gave Stalin "everything he could possibly have wished for" or "signed away Poland" is just false.

Ok - on the face of it, what you say is correct - Poland is conspicuously absent from that shameful document. Realistically, though, what do you think the western powers 10% of Romania would look like, for example? How did Churchill really suppose this agreement would affect Poland? In the event the Soviet 'sphere of influence' extended beyond Poland, beyond Hungary (which was supposed to be divided 50/50), into Germany and Austria. Perhaps Churchill was trying to limit this development, but in reality he received no such commitment. Amateurish diplomacy, at best.