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Kovax

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So you have less difficulty arguing for evil then you have in accepting that Hillary Clinton has a proven track record.
Proven, but not necessarily proven to be good. It's a lot more subjective than some are willing to admit. A lot of people are apparently willing to vote for a lot more abrasive and unstable candidate than to put up with 4 years of that "proven" record.

We'll have to wait at least another decade for the dust to clear before deciding on "best" or "worst" status, though.
 
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keynes2.0

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A lot of people are apparently willing to vote for a lot more abrasive and unstable candidate than to put up with 4 years of that "proven" record.

I think 35% of people would vote for Vladimir Putin as long as he was a member of their political party so it's not really saying a lot.


We'll have to wait at least another decade for the dust to clear before deciding on "best" or "worst" status, though.

I would agree that it wont be time to make judgement for at least a decade after she leaves office (if she wins). I'm just saying my expectation.
 

yerm

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I'd rather have American Putin than either Trump or Clinton. I'm sure he'd still be a menace to humanity but he'd be OUR menace to humanity!
 
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alpreb

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People, if you want to discuss the upcoming US presidential election you are free to do so, and you all know in which forum "current events" topics exists.

As an outsider, I don't feel the US has much to complain about when it comes to rulers. None of them have lost territory to any other nation and the only significant loss, The Vietnam War, didn't weaken you to any appreciable degree.
Sure, some way have been corrupt or incompetent, but when it doesn't end up with Wisconsin Americans being oppressed by foreign nations nor mass killing of them, the stewards of the United States have done allright in my book.

The most damning case against Presidents would be "You didn't stop the US Civil War", but I'm not entirely sure what those Presidents could have done to successfully stop it.
 
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Yakman

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The most damning case against Presidents would be "You didn't stop the US Civil War", but I'm not entirely sure what those Presidents could have done to successfully stop it.
Buchanan didn't do ANYTHING. A third of the country was in a state of open revolt and he did zilch. Didn't call up the army, didn't arrest the traitors, didn't do one single thing except throw up his hands. He and Pierce had continually enabled and coddled the Slave Power, despite the fact that they were burning down towns in Kansas and murdering abolitionists and Free Soilers.

He just abandoned his responsibilities entire. An utter, total failure, Miss Nancy was.
 

Dinglehoff

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Buchanan didn't do ANYTHING. A third of the country was in a state of open revolt and he did zilch. Didn't call up the army, didn't arrest the traitors, didn't do one single thing except throw up his hands. He and Pierce had continually enabled and coddled the Slave Power, despite the fact that they were burning down towns in Kansas and murdering abolitionists and Free Soilers.

He just abandoned his responsibilities entire. An utter, total failure, Miss Nancy was.
There were negotiations taking place to resolve the slavery issue during the crisis, meaning preserve it at least for the time being, but they couldn't agree on how. Calling up the army and arresting people just starts the war early.
 

alpreb

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Buchanan didn't do ANYTHING. A third of the country was in a state of open revolt and he did zilch. Didn't call up the army, didn't arrest the traitors, didn't do one single thing except throw up his hands. He and Pierce had continually enabled and coddled the Slave Power, despite the fact that they were burning down towns in Kansas and murdering abolitionists and Free Soilers.

He just abandoned his responsibilities entire. An utter, total failure, Miss Nancy was.
But would calling up the army work? It's quite an escalation to send in the army esp. 19th century version of it, that wasn't instruction nor trained to show restraint. Add that lot of soldiers and officers did join up for the confederates, so ordering what was formally federal forces might have escalated into conflict, because they might not follow orders.

Was it, at the time, even possible for him to successfully to make legislation solving the issues? In 1858 House was Republican and the Democrats splintered, so wouldn't most suggestions either way end up in a political deadlock?
 

SDSkinner

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But would calling up the army work? It's quite an escalation to send in the army esp. 19th century version of it, that wasn't instruction nor trained to show restraint. Add that lot of soldiers and officers did join up for the confederates, so ordering what was formally federal forces might have escalated into conflict, because they might not follow orders.

Andrew Jackson managed to do 'call up the army' without things coming to blood shed. Of course looking at what historically happened, when Lincoln called up the army, 4 more states seceded.
 

Yakman

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Andrew Jackson managed to do 'call up the army' without things coming to blood shed. Of course looking at what historically happened, when Lincoln called up the army, 4 more states seceded.
Sesesh has to be cleared away by the hand of God like the Jews of old.
 
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yerm

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Lincoln called up the army to deal with a full scale rebellion, not violent unrest that can have examples made in places like bleeding Kansas.
 

keynes2.0

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Buchanan was just making sure the US was on the right path. When he was in office there were still options. When Lincoln was in office, the country was in full blown crisis. Thus the US only had one course of action available, exactly as Seldon planned it.
 

Culise

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Andrew Jackson managed to do 'call up the army' without things coming to blood shed. Of course looking at what historically happened, when Lincoln called up the army, 4 more states seceded.
Indeed, as you say, what historically occurred in 1861 was quite different from 1832. Andrew Jackson had the advantage that the South as a whole wasn't openly interested in a violent confrontation, despite their rhetoric. In 1832, South Carolina found little overt support from its fellow Southern states, was carefully avoiding drawing together the military troops it had ordered raised (ordering them to train in their own homes instead of bringing them together to Charleston, apparently), and dithered on actually implementing the provisions of its tariff nullification even once it has resolved on that course. In 1861, the Deep South was united, multiple border states and the Upper South wavering, Southern military forces raised, armed, and training together, and the decisiveness of their will to maintain the antebellum slave state was certainly not going to be called into question.
 

DoomBunny

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Andrew Jackson managed to do 'call up the army' without things coming to blood shed. Of course looking at what historically happened, when Lincoln called up the army, 4 more states seceded.

By 1860 the sectional crisis was far deeper than it had been in Jackson's time. Moreover, South Carolina actually went ahead and seceded along with the rest of the Deep South, and Jackson had a reputation as more of a strongman than other Presidents.

That being said, Taylor did actually threaten to take an army South and make the slave states comply with his will. It achieved jack all, the South wasn't really dissuaded from secession and the Civil War simply happened 10 years later. Moreover, that's without Taylor actually going South. Which in itself is a major problem because it drives home this idea that the South is persecuted by the North and at risk of losing its slaves to Northern aggression.
 

Yakman

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Buchanan was just making sure the US was on the right path. When he was in office there were still options. When Lincoln was in office, the country was in full blown crisis. Thus the US only had one course of action available, exactly as Seldon planned it.
Sesesh has to be cleared away by the hand of God like the Jews of old.
 

Yakman

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We need more civil war movies to show how virtuous we are now. Remake Glory into a trilogy and start an entire cinematic universe around it. Get on it Hollywood.
yeah... no. just... no.
 

Yakman

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The internet thinks your two posts was a quote from Glory. Is that what you were going for?
Yes. Colonel Montgomery is the real hero of the movie.

600px-Glory_120.jpg


beach hat and all.
 

DoomBunny

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So, is that from some weird messed up Ferris Bueller sequel with a time machine and racism or?