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keynes2.0

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The presidents no one can remember are from the period where we had a very inactive executive branch. We dont have that in the post-WWII era. Presidents of this era might not be liked but that doesn't mean they will be forgotten. In fact the increased importance of the office probably contributes a lot to their controversial nature.
 

DoomBunny

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It's the period where the nation has moved past the founding fathers but not moved past slavery yet. Arguably, the real weakness of this time is the extremely opposed ideologies trying to coexist and the nation's leadership is stuck in a rut trying to play too many sides. You get people like Jackson trying to buck the awful system but being an awful human being, you get really powerful men like Polk and Lincoln, and then you get a lot of pawns of that period's established system who can't or won't enact real change.

I suspect centuries from now that people will look back at the period between WWII leaders and whatever follows our current mess and call this time in American history also a string of bad leadership with few exceptions.

Honestly the only POTUS who stands out to me post Truman is Nixon. Maybe Eisenhower. The rest (while certainly numbering many important historical figures amongst them) have little to recommend them as especially skillful leaders of nations.
 

subnormalized

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While Kennedy royally screwed up Cuba initially, he unbelievably salvaged it. His keeping things down to the slowest, steady escalation possible, with continued diplomatic dialogue? Well, that decision prevented WW3, which is impressive given the kind of gung-ho advice he got from some quarters, esp LeMay. Yeah, he then made the basic decisions that stuck us in Vietnam later, but backing off of Armageddon is still a worthy feat, and deserves to be remembered.

LBJ decided to use the Presidency to really push Civil Rights and Poverty programs. Vietnam screwed things up for him, but he did do well on the domestic front.

GHW Bush executed the diplomacy of the Gulf War nearly perfectly, and stepped away from the foreseeable quagmire. He got a recession and a third-party candidate to screw with his re-election, but his Foreign Policy was truly admirable...

Nixon did some really cool stuff, from Foreign (leveraging Sino-Soviet split) to Domestic (Clean Water act, EPA), and then decided to to cheat and lie for no understandable reason.

Reagan and Clinton were Big Charisma, but their successes are balanced by setbacks: Reagan spending the Soviets into history left us with a crazy debt trend, Clinton took the Peace Dividend too far and let Russia go into economic collapse, setting up the rise of Putin, or some other oligarch.

Basically, we have a really mixed record on the post-War PotUS. They do well in one area, and then fail on a different front. I'd say our last two (GWB, Obama) were the weakest of the bunch, frankly.

Jonathan Fisher
 

VineFynn

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Basically, we have a really mixed record on the post-War PotUS. They do well in one area, and then fail on a different front. I'd say our last two (GWB, Obama) were the weakest of the bunch, frankly.

Jonathan Fisher
Obama strikes me as a fascinating combination of a competent administrator, a political non-force and a charismo. He's not a very presidential figure, really. Like a visionary without a vision. Would probably do well as a Prime Minister in westminster politics.
 

DoomBunny

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Obama strikes me as a fascinating combination of a competent administrator, a political non-force and a charismo. He's not a very presidential figure, really. Like a visionary without a vision. Would probably do well as a Prime Minister in westminster politics.

As far as Obama goes, I'd say his main problems are his foreign policy, his inability to bridge domestic divides, and his general unlikeableness. As far as domestic policy goes, I'd argue he hasn't really achieved that much to mark him out, rather that he's bumbled by fairly well. I would think as time passes he will simply be remembered as the first Black POTUS rather than for any particular achievement.

Personally he's probably my least favourite POTUS since Kennedy, largely because they both come across very similarly. Big hopes, big dreams, nicely painted pictures of the future transferred with a wistful gaze into distant beauty and some clever words. In the end it's all hypocritical backboneless tripe formulated by a man who cared more about the vision than the facts and consequences. They're by no means alone in this, but Kennedy and Obama more than any other recent President seem to symbolize hope based charismatic BS.
 

Arilou

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and his general unlikeableness.

This is just weird. Obama strikes me as by far the most likeable american president since... Well, ever. Not talking his speechifying and such, but the bits we have of him with his family, or just talking to people. But maybe it's an age thing. (in that he's by far the president closest to me in age)
 
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DoomBunny

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This is just weird. Obama strikes me as by far the most likeable american president since... Well, ever. Not talking his speechifying and such, but the bits we have of him with his family, or just talking to people. But maybe it's an age thing. (in that he's by far the president closest to me in age)

This makes me dislike him more. I have an extreme dislike for falseness and people trying to exploit emotion rather than rationality. Together with Obama's hypocrisy it makes him come across to me as unlikable.

Certainly though, in the public sphere he has a mixed record.
 
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Arilou

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This makes me dislike him more. I have an extreme dislike for falseness and people trying to exploit emotion rather than rationality. Together with Obama's hypocrisy it makes him come across to me as unlikable.

Certainly though, in the public sphere he has a mixed record.

That's the thing, Obama strikes me as the *least* fake US president in quite a while. Certainly compared to Clinton, Bush, Bush the Elder or (God forbid) Reagan. Who might as well be made out of plastic.

And compared to the rest of the US political gang, Obama is the pinnacle of rationality. I mean, that still puts him at about 10 times higher schmaltz quota than I like, but y'know, when compared to the others...
 
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ZechsMerquise73

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Truman. Completely arrogant, actions directly led to the Cold War. Dropped the bomb on Hiroshima to circumvent his own ultimatum that he would otherwise blindly drive 3 million men into Tokyo Harbor for a battle that would be Stalingrad look like a game of playground jacks. Russians would have cleaned house in Japan without the various forms of US terror bombing. His imperialist aggression set the tone for the next 60 years.
 

DoomBunny

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Truman. Completely arrogant, actions directly led to the Cold War.

I wouldn't say so. Certainly contributed, but then again many of them were entirely justified.

Dropped the bomb on Hiroshima

Any President who didn't would automatically be the worst of the 20th century. Killing millions is not a good thing.

to circumvent his own ultimatum that he would otherwise blindly drive 3 million men into Tokyo Harbor for a battle that would be Stalingrad look like a game of playground jacks.

A while back someone posted a very convincing video dealing with this subject, a lecture by someone who's name I forget. It might have been Richard B. Franks.

Russians would have cleaned house in Japan

Two phrases that have never been uttered:

"Hurray! We've been liberated by the Red Army!" and "My, my! those Soviets are masters of amphibious warfare!"

In short, a Soviet occupation of Japan, aside from being awful, also depends on the Soviets having the capability to launch one. Which they pretty emphatically did not.

without the various forms of US terror bombing.

And Truman looking all the better for it.

His imperialist aggression set the tone for the next 60 years.

Examples?
 
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kis12134

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I wouldn't say so. Certainly contributed, but then again many of them were entirely justified.



Any President who didn't would automatically be the worst of the 20th century. Killing millions is not a good thing.



A while back someone posted a very convincing video dealing with this subject, a lecture by someone who's name I forget. It might have been Richard B. Franks.



Two phrases that have never been uttered:

"Hurray! We've been liberated by the Red Army!" and "My, my! those Soviets are masters of amphibious warfare!"

In short, a Soviet occupation of Japan, aside from being awful, also depends on the Soviets having the capability to launch one. Which they pretty emphatically did not.



And Truman looking all the better for it.



Examples?
This makes me wonder. If Truman hadn't dropped the bomb and forced Japan to submit, how far would the US go to have a semi-powerful and competent ally in the region? Losing Japan to the Soviets may make them reconsider how much they want Nationalist China to survive.
 

DoomBunny

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If the Soviets somehow managed to successfully invade Japan (and I really find that a doubtful proposition), I'd imagine the Americans would rush through a Southern landing to get boots on the ground.

If somehow you end up with a situation of Japan being completely Soviet held then I'd suggest that would provoke a very hardline response from Truman. One of the good points about the man was that, unlike some other Presidents, he wasn't afraid to stick his foot in the door when it was called for.

I'd argue he's actually very underrated as far as they go.
 
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ConjurerDragon

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...
Any President who didn't would automatically be the worst of the 20th century. Killing millions is not a good thing.

Not using the nukes does not mean that millions would have died. Already at the end of June Japan had announced through the soviets that they were willing to negotiate a surrender - just not an *unconditional* surrender.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union

Prolonging the war only allowed the soviets time to transfer more divisions to the far east to steamroll Manchuria which became the only reason that an almost defeated Mao suddenly had control over a large area of China and was able to fight Nationalist China on equal terms.

Two phrases that have never been uttered:

"Hurray! We've been liberated by the Red Army!" and "My, my! those Soviets are masters of amphibious warfare!"

In short, a Soviet occupation of Japan, aside from being awful, also depends on the Soviets having the capability to launch one. Which they pretty emphatically did not.

If the Soviets somehow managed to successfully invade Japan ...

They did invade Japan. At least what belonged to Imperial Japan back then, namely the south of Sachalin Island, the Kurils and North Korea by amphibious assaults so that soviet forces were already there when their army that waltzed through Manchuria arrived.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria#Campaign

So the Soviets were able to do amphibious assaults, at least on a small scale and unlike you Truman did not dismiss their abilites so easily and considered a postwar division of Japan when the war did not end before the soviets advanced further
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Negotiations
 

ZechsMerquise73

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he wasn't afraid to stick someone else's foot in the door when it was called for.
Fixed.

There was little reason to conceive of hitting Tokyo in a desperation attack. Their enemy was surrounded and strangled for resources. It's doubtful that the Japanese would have taken long before surrendering to the Americans, fearing the ravenous Soviet army. The idea that because they had never performed marine invasions before, is completely counter to what actually happened with the Americans and Japanese, who were performing naval invasions for the first time, and performing ground operations in completely foreign terrain throughout their war in the Pacific and America's war in Europe.

What do you mean give an example? His use of the two nukes alone set the stage for nuclear proliferation and the mutually assured destruction doctrine. His hostile diplomacy was the embodiment of that 'we can be civil, so long as we have daggers to each other's throats' element within the idea of nuclear deterrence. It's not just something that was naturally going to spring up on its own, but a meta game... and Harry S. Truman had first go at writing the rules. And all of that played back and forth into US and Russian diplomacy; two countries which didn't necessarily need to compete or be rivals. None of it was what was called for at the time, and caused a lot of people a lot of pain.
 
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DoomBunny

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Not using the nukes does not mean that millions would have died. Already at the end of June Japan had announced through the soviets that they were willing to negotiate a surrender - just not an *unconditional* surrender.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union

Prolonging the war only allowed the soviets time to transfer more divisions to the far east to steamroll Manchuria which became the only reason that an almost defeated Mao suddenly had control over a large area of China and was able to fight Nationalist China on equal terms.

I'll refer you to the lecture I mentioned previously. I'm growing fairly sure now it was Richard B. Frank, as his book seems to ring a bell. Can't find the thing though, if anyone knows the one I'm talking about and wants to help out?

They did invade Japan. At least what belonged to Imperial Japan back then, namely the south of Sachalin Island, the Kurils and North Korea by amphibious assaults so that soviet forces were already there when their army that waltzed through Manchuria arrived.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria#Campaign

So the Soviets were able to do amphibious assaults, at least on a small scale and unlike you Truman did not dismiss their abilites so easily and considered a postwar division of Japan when the war did not end before the soviets advanced further
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Negotiations

Indeed, I am not ignorant of this. However, this capability was small scale and heavily flawed. The feasibility of a large scale invasion of Japan (particularly without US efforts in the South) would be in question.


Really? Because under Truman the US very much took the lead into most problems it was forced to confront. Marshall Aid, Berlin, Korea. China is the odd one out, but an intervention there would have had been a large and dubious proposition.

There was little reason to conceive of hitting Tokyo in a desperation attack.

Desperation attack? The US wasn't doing desperation attacks by 1945.

Their enemy was surrounded and strangled for resources.

Indeed, and still refusing to surrender.

It's doubtful that the Japanese would have taken long before surrendering to the Americans, fearing the ravenous Soviet army.

The ravenous Soviet army as you put it was separated from Japan by a large body of water.

Again, I'd point you to this lecture (once I find the bloody thing) which pretty conclusively dismisses this point.

The idea that because they had never performed marine invasions before, is completely counter to what actually happened with the Americans and Japanese, who were performing naval invasions for the first time

Well, no. The US and Japan both had extremely well developed naval traditions, and had traditionally considered the problems of amphibious landing (this was particularly true in the Japanese case). In the US case this existing experience had been built upon over 3.5 years of warfare and the support of the world's largest industry.

To compare the Soviet amphibious capability to that of America is ridiculous.

and performing ground operations in completely foreign terrain throughout their war in the Pacific and America's war in Europe.

I don't see the point here. Armies can and did adapt to terrain, though I'd note that Europe isn't so different from North America as you suppose. It's somewhat harder meanwhile to develop the techniques and equipment needed for largescale amphibious warfare and then build/implement them.

What do you mean give an example? His use of the two nukes alone set the stage for nuclear proliferation and the mutually assured destruction doctrine.

Saved millions of lives. Damned fine Presidenting.

Besides, do you really think noone else was going to want nukes anyway?

His hostile diplomacy was the embodiment of that 'we can be civil, so long as we have daggers to each other's throats' element within the idea of nuclear deterrence.

See, as much as Truman's diplomacy might be considered hostile, it was Stalin who decided to turn Eastern Europe into his backyard, Stalin who decided to squeeze Berlin in return for concessions, and the Norks who decided it was playtime in Korea.

It's not just something that was naturally going to spring up on its own, but a meta game... and Harry S. Truman had first go at writing the rules. And all of that played back and forth into US and Russian diplomacy; two countries which didn't necessarily need to compete or be rivals.

Actually I'd argue the start of the Cold War was fairly natural. You have the world's two clear leading powers, each with strongly opposed interests, each seeing a background of threat. For the USSR that comes from the Great Patriotic War and Stalin's own paranoia, for the USA it comes from the Soviet advances in Eastern Europe.

None of that was Truman's fault. Indeed, if anyone was the initial aggressor one should look to Stalin for his decision to seize control of Eastern Europe.

None of it was what was called for at the time, and caused a lot of people a lot of pain.

Rebuilding Europe after WW2? Sounds decent to me, even if it was a massive cash making/anti-Communist plan.

Feeding Berlin? Pretty decent move.

Korean War? Well, call me Susanna but I'm not sure the Kims are nice fellas.

Can I ask a follow up here? Are you an FDR fan?
 
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DoomBunny

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As far as Obama goes, I'd say his main problems are his foreign policy, his inability to bridge domestic divides, and his general unlikeableness. As far as domestic policy goes, I'd argue he hasn't really achieved that much to mark him out, rather that he's bumbled by fairly well. I would think as time passes he will simply be remembered as the first Black POTUS rather than for any particular achievement.

What about Obamacare?
 

Dinglehoff

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Obama reminds me of a boss I used to have. He's in charge so he gets to do whatever he wants, which is mostly goofing off. He delegates responsibility to his radical cronies and on the off chance he actually feels like doing his job, he works with them to abuse the people and damage the US and undermine our interests abroad. Worst and most anti-American President ever. Once he's retired he'll probably reveal why.
 
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ZechsMerquise73

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The idea that they were forced to confront the Soviet Union with belligerent diplomacy is circular thinking. Just because US and strong-handed dealing at the end of the war (mostly led by Truman), should not assume that the outcome would have been the same either way. You're taking choice out of the hands of men here. Things would have been different. Not necessarily in any optimistic way, but you can't say "well, if they didn't insult the Russians and threaten them with nuclear holocaust, how ever would people have gotten through that rivalry?" Hmm, perhaps not start the rivalry in the first place.

Desperation attack, as in the planned attack on Tokyo. The thing we're talking about. I really don't like having conversations with people who cut up every sentence. You can write a coherent reply rather than splitting every single line.

Japanese resolve was fueled by the declaration of the need for an unconditional surrender. Propaganda, which the US was fueling, that every last Japanese person was going to be brutalised. Terror bombing succeeded in terrorising the public in, amazing, being afraid of their enemies to whom they were not allowed to surrender on their terms by any means. Besides, what were they going to do isolated on their island? Surrender was their only option. Furthermore, the peace as it turned out did very little that actually needed unconditional surrender. They disarmed the country, removed most of it's outlying holdings, and removed the status of the defied emperor. Many issues, like the claims on Russian islands, remained unresolved. The whole point of the end of the Japanese theatre was to drop the bomb. The bomb gave diplomatic power to the US for resolving the final borders in Europe.

The US and Japan had little to no experience with landing craft raids. The Soviet Union could easily have put together landing craft and made massive front landings. There's absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. Hell, they could have borrowed US industry and land crafts. None of the 'techniques of amphibious warfare' were more than a few years old... Not to mention, it's not like the whole invasion would have been island hopping. You don't need an armada to cross a straight with airforce backing.

Truman's use of the atomic bomb is singularly what set the stage for the nuclear arm's race. Sure, it would have been there regardless. But we can't say for certain if it would have shaped the political landscape of the 20th century if it did. The nature of the nuclear scene has changed drastically between then and now, where today it isn't a constant threat of inhalation. There could have been peace in their time with just some considerate diplomacy. Also, Stalin only went in so hard on the Communist Bloc because it was pretty clear the US was now their main rival. The game was initiated; don't blame him for playing it.

It's pretty clear you're only interested in the patriotic narrative. You win: Buchanan was the worst president, like everyone ever always says. He didn't let the slaves go, don'tcha know!
 
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