Worried about division-planner

[BeauNiddle]

What is this screenshot from?

That's a page from a Flames of War manual - it's a tabletop war game.

http://www.flamesofwar.com/

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

1.) Gameplay: Currently you're not allowed to put more than 1 unit per support unit type in an division. That seems arbitrary. Is there any reason behind it? I get that they don't want people to exploit the system and construct some overpowered units with 5 arti as support that just kills everything. Well, in this case, just give us some penalties or don't allow more than 3 or something of a type. Is there any reason behind it, why it's not possible to have 2 artis or is it just, because it's alpha and not done yet?

For the most part I prefer it the way they implemented it in the current state.

From the screenshot you can actually see that it is possible to add artillery as regular battalions not only as support... so to some degree more artillery is possible to add. It might also be possible to add SP and TD as regular units. I don't see much need for adding more Engineers, Anti-tank in the support section than one unit of each, seems sort of logical from a realistic point of view.

It can for some feel arbitrary but it will hinder abuse of the game mechanic system which is good for the realism part of the game and also for game balance as a whole.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

Did you guys not see in the Quill18 video that while he can only add one support artillery, he can add whole artillery battalions in the non-supports slots? That means you can probably fill a whole brigade with just artillery.

I assume that support artillery is simply a small support unit of artillery, just enough to help the division, while you can still add whole and multiple artillery battalions.

EDIT: Damn you Jorgen! You beat me to it.

 

[HeilLoki]

From the screenshot you can actually see that it is possible to add artillery as regular battalions not only as support...

I watched Quills video 2 times in full lenghts and 1 time in parts... I didn't see it. Now I watched a 4th time and I got it. Thanks!

I don't quite get the reasoning behind having it as support and/or as regular unit. Well, I kinda get it, but I'm not sure if I like it. Support means, you can only have 1 unit, but regular means, you can build a whole regiment (or however a "row" is called) around your Arti. Ok. Maybe support has vastly different stats than regulars?

Well, I think we have to wait for the DD. Thanks for your help guys.

 

[Kallar]

What is this screenshot from?

Flames of War. Its a Tabletop minature game.

 

[podcat]

Sorry but I don´t agree; in HOI III I could build INF+4ART because it was the cheapest division with the highest soft attack in-game or I build ARM+TD+(2 or 3) AC because that was the only way to survive as Poland if I played "historically" or LARM+(4) AC because I wanted the fastest division possible in plains. My point is that no matter the amount of experience I gain in HOI IV I won´t be able to play (i.e. have fun) with these divisions because it seems I won´t be able to build them; I can only pick one support of each type and I am "forced" to select up to 5 brigades with width which also reduces my tactical and strategic options by a lot (...) The restrictions of the HOI IV division builder effectively reduce the number of variables that the dev have to account for and they did it on purpose because they know very well what they are doing; being able to select battalions only give you the illusion of having more choice when if fact the rules enforce the opposite.

There is no such thing as Armored Car (AC) in HOI4. You have a single recon battalion that can speed up the whole division. I dont think its particularly realistic that just stacking more recon speeds up a division. One will already let you find "the optimal travel route" etc.

In HOI4 I would probably design a motorized or mechanized focused division (maybe a mix to keep cost down and still get armor advantage vs infantry) plus recon to get high speed and assign both AT and support artillery (if we can afford it). A slower, but stronger alternative would be using a mix of light tanks, recon and self propelled arty/AT mounted on light tanks to keep softness down and speed up. Making sure you have an air force that can take on the german one will be important because of how strong air superiority is.

To be perfectly honest though I would dig in behind a large river with units set up for maximum defense, ignore speed and make myself really annoying to draw enough troops from french border over time to give them courage to help me. This worked fairly will in the last MP game I played as Poland.

I watched Quills video 2 times in full lenghts and 1 time in parts... I didn't see it. Now I watched a 4th time and I got it. Thanks!

I don't quite get the reasoning behind having it as support and/or as regular unit. Well, I kinda get it, but I'm not sure if I like it. Support means, you can only have 1 unit, but regular means, you can build a whole regiment (or however a "row" is called) around your Arti. Ok. Maybe support has vastly different stats than regulars?

Well, I think we have to wait for the DD. Thanks for your help guys.

support artillery is different from front-line assigned artillery. They dont have the same stats and such.

 

[Denkt]

What do the + mean at the support artillery, different choice of size?

I guess that support artillery represent heavy guns while battalion artillery are smaler field guns. I guess rocker artillery only exist as field version and aa only as support version.

Do engineers and recon depend on the size of the division, do a larger division need a larger engineer and recon battalion?

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

What do the + mean at the support artillery, different choice of size?

I guess that support artillery represent heavy guns while battalion artillery are smaler field guns. I guess rocker artillery only exist as field version and aa only as support version.

Do engineers and recon depend on the size of the division, do a larger division need a larger engineer and recon battalion?

I would asume it's the other way around. Support artillery is just light support, while the whole battalion artillery are the big guns.

I wonder what the + means, too though! I didn't even notice it before you mentioned it.

 

[BurdenedWarrior]

This might be one of my favourite new mechanics. Just for the fact I will be able to play USSR without having to micro a couple hundred units to form up a proper army. Like I can just form up ALL of my divisions how i want them soooo easily. And it seems way more robust than anything HOI3 had. This in combo with the production is going to rock!

 

[Tekore]

thats how it is. you cant mix infantry & tanks in the same regiment column, but you can mix different types of tanks etc

So, can this be changed depending on your land combat doctrines? I thought the British & French used infantry & tanks together early war, which cost them mobility in the battle of France. or maybe I'm misremembering how that formation worked

 

[Denkt]

You can put tanks and infantry togther in the same division, however you can't have both tanks and infantry in the same coloum.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

I wonder how the icon for new divisions is determined. I mean, it could be as simple as "The icon of the most numerous unit type is used" but if they are used o in equal amounts? Like, 2 light tanks and 2 infantry? Or do we even get to pick the symbols?

 

[Gamer_1745]

I think I fully agree with all that podcat said. Adding more recon units should not speed up a division more than just one. I would not want the effect to stack. I think there were a few historic divisions that would have more than one recon unit. Something like Armored Car equipped recon unit & a Horse (Cavalry) equipped recon unit in the same division and I don't want the effects (recon speeding up the division) to stack. I would like what combat power recon can contribute to be added (as in if all the equipment & men were in one large recon unit).

I would admit this is mainly for immersion. As if a recon unit can be equipped with Horses that give good (better) recon bonus in mountains and Armored Car Equipped recon unit give good (better) recon bonus in planes and if I have both equipment types in the same recon support unit either it uses the best or averages it out. So being able to have 2 units is more for immersion. I just want to dig-in and take a look at HOI IV and see what can be done.

 

[GhengisKhan]

There is no such thing as Armored Car (AC) in HOI4. You have a single recon battalion that can speed up the whole division. I dont think its particularly realistic that just stacking more recon speeds up a division. One will already let you find "the optimal travel route" etc.

In HOI4 I would probably design a motorized or mechanized focused division (maybe a mix to keep cost down and still get armor advantage vs infantry) plus recon to get high speed and assign both AT and support artillery (if we can afford it). A slower, but stronger alternative would be using a mix of light tanks, recon and self propelled arty/AT mounted on light tanks to keep softness down and speed up. Making sure you have an air force that can take on the german one will be important because of how strong air superiority is.

To be perfectly honest though I would dig in behind a large river with units set up for maximum defense, ignore speed and make myself really annoying to draw enough troops from french border over time to give them courage to help me. This worked fairly will in the last MP game I played as Poland.

So to clarify. Do say Tank Destoyers and SP Artillery or SP AA counts as tanks for the afformentioned example. Can I put say 2 tanks and one Mot Artillery in one of the tank regiments or maybe 2 tanks and 1 each of SPAA and SPART in one regiment? Or will we have to open a whole new regiment for each?

 

[208]

Sorry but I don´t agree; in HOI III I could build INF+4ART because it was the cheapest division with the highest soft attack in-game or I build ARM+TD+(2 or 3) AC because that was the only way to survive as Poland if I played "historically" or LARM+(4) AC because I wanted the fastest division possible in plains. My point is that no matter the amount of experience I gain in HOI IV I won´t be able to play (i.e. have fun) with these divisions because it seems I won´t be able to build them; I can only pick one support of each type and I am "forced" to select up to 5 brigades with width which also reduces my tactical and strategic options by a lot (...) The restrictions of the HOI IV division builder effectively reduce the number of variables that the dev have to account for and they did it on purpose because they know very well what they are doing; being able to select battalions only give you the illusion of having more choice when if fact the rules enforce the opposite.

You could - but it breaks any sense of immersion/realism pretty badly. I for one won't miss it if those kinds of absurd builds are not possible/functional in HoI4.

 

[bruebottom]

Historically the Heer did have 4 artillerie divisions (18, 310, 311, and 312). These divisions where formed up in late 1943 and either disbanded by the spring of 1944 or lost in battle. The 18. Artillerie-Division (as listed on the Axis History website) had 3 full regiments of artillery and its supporting brigades.

To build a lot of divisions where there is one infantry brigade and three artillery regiments so that the player can take advantage of the game mechanics is gamey. But for immersion it might not be so bad if just these 4 divisions where available to Germany.

 

[jamesd]

thats how it is. you cant mix infantry & tanks in the same regiment column, but you can mix different types of tanks etc

There is no such thing as Armored Car (AC) in HOI4. You have a single recon battalion that can speed up the whole division. I dont think its particularly realistic that just stacking more recon speeds up a division. One will already let you find "the optimal travel route" etc.

In HOI4 I would probably design a motorized or mechanized focused division (maybe a mix to keep cost down and still get armor advantage vs infantry) plus recon to get high speed and assign both AT and support artillery (if we can afford it). A slower, but stronger alternative would be using a mix of light tanks, recon and self propelled arty/AT mounted on light tanks to keep softness down and speed up. Making sure you have an air force that can take on the german one will be important because of how strong air superiority is.

To be perfectly honest though I would dig in behind a large river with units set up for maximum defense, ignore speed and make myself really annoying to draw enough troops from french border over time to give them courage to help me. This worked fairly will in the last MP game I played as Poland.

support artillery is different from front-line assigned artillery. They dont have the same stats and such.

OK from what I've read is this the correct structure for a Wehrmacht Panzer Grenadier Division in say 1943:

Brigade 1
3 x Mot Inf Bns
1 x Mot Field Art Bn (105mm howitzers)
1 x Mot AT Bn (infantry regimental and battalion guns)
Brigade 2
3 x Mot Inf Bns
2 x Mot Field Art Bns (105mm howitzer bn plus regimental infantry guns or 120mm mortars)
Brigade 3
1 x Assault Gun Bn (theoretically a Pz Bn but almost all equipped with StuGs)
Support Brigade
1 x Mot Medium Art Bn (150mm howitzers)
1 x Mot Eng Bn
1 x Mech Recon Bn (some AC's with inf in half tracks)
1 x SP AT Bn
1 x Mot/Mech AA Bn (some towed 88's and some lighter guns mounted on half tracks)

One concern I still have is how are non-divisional units going to be treated? Will there be separate divisional templates filled with all those units or will we have to incorporate them in regular divisional templates? If the latter we'd need to add additional medium artillery, engineer & AA bns to the above as a minimum.

Edit: added extra artillery upon learning the battalions only have 12 guns each

 

[Gamer_1745]

I don't see why we couldn't have 1 battalion 'division' with say Tiger II's that all on it's own wouldn't be that effective, but stacked with other divisions would be useful and the ability to shift this 1 battalion 'division' from formation to formation would also be useful.

 

[jamesd]

I don't see why we couldn't have 1 battalion 'division' with say Tiger II's that all on it's own wouldn't be that effective, but stacked with other divisions would be useful and the ability to shift this 1 battalion 'division' from formation to formation would also be useful.

In HOI3 I'd attach a HARM, MOT, AC & SPR to a Panzer HQ to represent corps & army troops. Then the HQ would be used to bolster the attack or defence of key locations. For HOI4 I'm thinking along similar lines where I'd want corps troops concentrated in their own template - of course we'd need to be able to include more than a just one Art, Eng & AA bn.

 

[Veer]

Based on the gameplay vids, you can get a good idea of what the division manager entails:

Division before additions:

Battalions that can be added:

After adding 6 Artillery Battalions, see how the stats and equipment costs change:

Quite interesting, he made a vastly more powerful division!

Images are from Northernlions youtube vid btw. Sorry for the potato quality.