World War Wednesday - today (27th) at 14:30CEST

[Scutatus]

About sea battles and air battles

So basically, you pick your fleet/air units, you throw them in one of the 3 sea zones the Med is made of... and then they meet their opponent and fight them.

Wow... this game looks like a Axis & Allies more than ever... and less and less like World in Flames kind of game : move a stack, roll the dices, see the results... Where is tactical game gone ? To the drain ?

Did I miss something ?

I was seriously thinking about buying this but... well... I suddenly have huge doubt about it.

With HOI 1 - 3 one could observe the natural development of the game as features were improved and added to and the game was built up a little bit more with each new version. However, with HOI 4 there has been no such natural progression. Indeed, the opposite could be said to be true. HOI 3 gave an intense level of complexity and detail - some said TOO much. Unfortunately it gave so much depth, there was so much for the player to deal with, that many players found it intimidating and overwhelming when they started - i.e, they were put off (the problems the game had in the early days did not help either).

Since Paradox wants to encourage gamers rather than push them away (because after all, they are in this to make money), this time round, for the first time, they have simplified and streamlined the game back quite considerably, and in even the areas that remain they have sometimes gone in a very different direction. The trouble with simplifying and streamlining a game is... it gets simplified and streamlined. Not always in favourable positive ways. I myself have already noted the absence of a couple of game mechanics that I enjoyed in HOI 3 - or even HOI 2 - that have now been cut. I'm just hoping there won't be too MUCH cut, and that the game won't be too different to the HOI I have loved in the past, and suffer for it.

I have seen much in the WWW and Dev diaries that have pleased me - there is lots of promising new content, some of which have got me quite excited by themselves - but there are also some features and mechanics that have given me cause for concern. It may just be a matter of adapting to the new game and the new approach though. I try to bear in mind - and everyone should really - that we have STILL yet to see the finished product that will actually be released. Changes could still happen. So the only way to know for sure what HOI4 will ultimately be is to wait for the week of release (and maybe not even then, considering months or years of game changing patches and add-ons lie ahead after release). We'll find out soon enough what the real deal is.

 

[Gort11]

About sea battles and air battles

So basically, you pick your fleet/air units, you throw them in one of the 3 sea zones the Med is made of... and then they meet their opponent and fight them.

Wow... this game looks like a Axis & Allies more than ever... and less and less like World in Flames kind of game : move a stack, roll the dices, see the results... Where is tactical game gone ? To the drain ?

Did I miss something ?

I was seriously thinking about buying this but... well... I suddenly have huge doubt about it.

See, I've seen World in Flames played and it's exactly this - you pick your fleet/air units, you throw them in a sea zone, roll the dice and see the results. And what exactly would you want anyway, World in Flames a strategy game, not a tactics game - tactics are abstracted.

Except a lot of the time you don't find the enemy and that's it until your next chance to roll the dice.

So I can't say I get what you're trying to say.

 

[Jamey]

Any ETA on a YouTube video?

Looks like it is uploaded now.

 

[ComradeCommissar]

Honestly I think Daniel could've held out, if I remember correctly, at the end his untrained divisions were holding the Italians off in Croatia and Bosnia. All he needed was to cut off the Germans in Poland and he would drastically shorten his front, and clear the Germans of probably a dozen divisons or so.

 

[Paglia]

See, I've seen World in Flames played and it's exactly this - you pick your fleet/air units, you throw them in a sea zone, roll the dice and see the results.

Except a lot of the time you don't find the enemy and that's it until your next chance to roll the dice.

So I can't say I get what you're trying to say.

You are right that in WiF you were moving ships to sea zones too, with 0-3 stages where you had to try to find the nemy. Difference was... Med was not made of 3 sea zones. But I agree my example was not that clear. Scutatus did understand what I was pointing tough in his post 101. Tactical moves seem to have been cut out of the game. I feel it has been.

I agree they said the number of zones can be modded. I guess I will have to mod HoI4 like I did with HoI3.

 

[Paglia]

With HOI 1 - 3 one could observe the natural development of the game as features were improved and added to and the game was built up a little bit more with each new version. However, with HOI 4 there has been no such natural progression. Indeed, the opposite could be said to be true. HOI 3 gave an intense level of complexity and detail - some said TOO much. Unfortunately it gave so much depth, there was so much for the player to deal with, that many players found it intimidating and overwhelming when they started - i.e, they were put off (the problems the game had in the early days did not help either).

Since Paradox wants to encourage gamers rather than push them away (because after all, they are in this to make money), this time round, for the first time, they have simplified and streamlined the game back quite considerably, and in even the areas that remain they have sometimes gone in a very different direction. The trouble with simplifying and streamlining a game is... it gets simplified and streamlined. Not always in favourable positive ways. I myself have already noted the absence of a couple of game mechanics that I enjoyed in HOI 3 - or even HOI 2 - that have now been cut. I'm just hoping there won't be too MUCH cut, and that the game won't be too different to the HOI I have loved in the past, and suffer for it.

I have seen much in the WWW and Dev diaries that have pleased me - there is lots of promising new content, some of which have got me quite excited by themselves - but there are also some features and mechanics that have given me cause for concern. It may just be a matter of adapting to the new game and the new approach though. I try to bear in mind - and everyone should really - that we have STILL yet to see the finished product that will actually be released. Changes could still happen. So the only way to know for sure what HOI4 will ultimately be is to wait for the week of release (and maybe not even then, considering months or years of game changing patches and add-ons lie ahead after release). We'll find out soon enough what the real deal is.

You read my mind. Exactly my feelings.

But like you, wait and see is what I'll do for the time being. But clearly, no 40$ will be going out when it is launched. I guess I'll have to assess before comitting.


EDIT: My main fear is that the tactical level would be cut out. I don't understand why people want to ask AI to do the work for them... I mean... so dumb... (AI I mean, not the people ). And maybe all the animation seem pointless as ships and planes moving are not relevant to assess where the battle is taking place... And the figurines stuff... I mean I'm looking for a wargames, not a Clash of Clan games type


EDIT2: Just to clarify. I understand that the streamline formula is very relevant for Eu3 or Eu4 as the main point of theses games (which I play and own) is to manage over huge amount of time, a country with many economic, social, religious, cultural and diplomatic features. On top, you hvae basic military features. HoI3, with limited timeframe, e.g. WWII, is basically a military feature. So you'd expect to get tactical stuff, not only brigades design or tech choices... I mean those are support functions for something greater.

I guess I'm obviously not the targeted Customer.

 

[Gort11]

HoI 4 looks like a ton of fun to me. I have my concerns over balance and AI, but the whole thing just screams playable to me.

 

[Paglia]

HoI 4 looks like a ton of fun to me. I have my concerns over balance and AI, but the whole thing just screams playable to me.

I agree HoI3 was unplayable for anyone not used to deep and complex wargames.
That's true and I easily understand why many chose to walk away from that.
Just that I don't think HoI4 is what I'm looking for.
It does not mean that HoI4 will be a bad game, or not a very good game. Far from it.
Lot of good games I don't play either...



P.S. To be honest, I got in at For the Motherland... so I missed all the rough parts of basic HoI3 and Semper FI. So I can only imagine how reluctant one could have been if he tried the game before FTM/TFH.

 

[Scutatus]

I guess I'm obviously not the targeted Customer.

If you are older than thirty - or are an ancient (ahem) man of forty four, (as I am), you may well be right. Computer games - even deep WWII strategy games like HOI - are generally not made for the middle aged.

 

[Paglia]

If you are older than thirty - or are an ancient (ahem) man of forty four, (as I am), you may well be right.

Technically, I'm pas half my life... if you expect to live 90 years or so

... and playing wargames in hexagones style map since 12 years old... (yeah... Squad Leader, WiF, 3rd Reich... Europa...)... so HoI3 wasa natural switch (avoiding to search for huge room for huge maps...

 

[Scutatus]

Technically, I'm pas half my life... if you expect to live 90 years or so

Come my friend, let us join the old codgers club, and drown our sorrows in that there pub, over the hill.

 

[Paglia]

Come my friend, let us join the old codgers club, and drown our sorrows in that there pub, over the hill.

I'll gladly join you there...

(as soon as I can get out of my office where I'm stuck for another hour or so)

 

[Scutatus]

I'll gladly join you there...

(as soon as I can get out of my office where I'm stuck for another hour or so)

I work from home myself, which grants me some flexibility, (such as freedom to be here from time to time), but it also sees me working at obscene hours.

 

[Paglia]

I work from home myself, which grants me some flexibility, (such as freedom to be here from time to time), but it also sees me working at obscene hours.

Well.... office jobs don't prevent you from working at obscene hours either.. I know by experience.

... too bad there isn't a smiley with a beer in his hands !

 

[Scutatus]

Well.... office jobs don't prevent you from working at obscene hours either.. I know by experience.

... too bad there isn't a smiley with a beer in his hands !

Cheers!

 

[The Balbinater]

this game has an over abundance of the aged and aging... which is why we care so much, few games are worth our time or attention...

here's hoping HoI4 can deliver!

 

[Scutatus]

this game has an over abundance of the aged and aging... which is why we care so much, few games are worth our time or attention...

here's hoping HoI4 can deliver!

Here's hoping.

Barman, my good man! Another pint for Balbinater!

 

[JerkyJerry]

If you are older than thirty - or are an ancient (ahem) man of forty four, (as I am), you may well be right. Computer games - even deep WWII strategy games like HOI - are generally not made for the middle aged.

Is that the accepted truth? I'm not saying it is not the truth but I always thought that this genre of game was targeted to those gamers maybe mid to late 20's and older?

44 is old? Oh man are you in for quite the surprise

 

[Paglia]

Is that the accepted truth? I'm not saying it is not the truth but I always thought that this genre of game was targeted to those gamers maybe mid to late 20's and older?

44 is old? Oh man are you in for quite the surprise

I can't say. For my part, I almost solely play wargames like HoI3 (and WoT). Guess I've been playing wargames for more than 30+ years... so old habits die hard

 

[Scutatus]

Is that the accepted truth? I'm not saying it is not the truth but I always thought that this genre of game was targeted to those gamers maybe mid to late 20's and older?

44 is old? Oh man are you in for quite the surprise

Just like Paglia above I have played wargames - on the board, the tabletop, or in the computer - since I was in my early teens. Old habits do indeed die hard.

As the saying goes, one is as old as you feel. Which probably says a lot about me. But then compared to the young whipper snappers too young to shave yet but thinking they know it all already (to be fair some of them do actually get close with their WWII knowledge) I AM old!

The computer game market, by definition, is mostly aimed at the young. The reason for this is that it is assumed that the young have less responsibilities, far more free time, and apart from school or college days (which, lets face it, take up far less time each year than most jobs do), they are free to play as much as they like. Even if more mature gamers may not have the most taxing or time consuming of jobs, they usually have family and chores and responsibilities to attend to. The young (usually) have few of such concerns and distractions. The big money is in winning over such players that can commit to playing literally for days on end, almost without pause, that will be so hooked that the game becomes an extension of their lives and they HAVE to buy EVERY SINGLE DLC.

And that's usually the young. The HOI games may buck that trend a bit, because of the style of game it is, but even if there is a higher percentage of mature gamers on this Paradox forum than normal, don't make the mistake of thinking we're the intended audience. I've still noted a LOT of obvious youngun's here - and they tend to be the ones with the loudest and most influential voices. Influential because they are the ones Paradox want to please. I strongly doubt that it is us.

Even the WWWs have a very definite aimed at the young vibe, if you know what you are looking for. There's a reason every www descends into rushing the enemy in '36 with nowt but infantry and almost 0 research or equipment.