World Oil in WW2 and in Hoi. Wishes. Large Tractate.

[Nick3210]

I guess all children went to play HOI-4 and now, here, in HOI-2 (DH) only ones remain, who appreciate in HOI not only great gameplay, but also special historical atmosphere and maximum of realism, allowing us more deeply enjoy this great game about WW2.

And today we will speak about Oil, because everyone knows that oil is really "blood of war" and it is impossible to imagine WW2 (or make games about WW2) without this black gold.
(And sorry for my ugly english)

CONTENTS:​

1. Introduction

2. What is 1 oil "droplet" in Hoi2?
What types of fuel are consumed by ships and by land units?
Refinery technologies in 30-40 years.
How much crude oil and fuel is contained in one oil "droplet" in Hoi?

3.How much Hoi-Oil droplets should units to consume in game?

4. World Oil in 1930-1940.
Production and civilian consumption.
Concessions!
Tons, interest, rates.

5. Сorrect (historical and realistic) implementation of world oil in HOI.
What modding tools for this we have now, and what modding tools I would like to get from our esteemed Devs in next patches.

6. Synthetic fuel in 2WW and in Hoi. It's time to fix it and make it correctly and realistic!

7. Dreams and desires about the ideal implementation of the world oil in Darkest Hour-2 or in any big patch.
Maximum of realism and historicity! The concept of two real types of fuel: for ships and for Land/Air units! How it can work.

PART 1.

Introduction
​

That feeling, when you сouldn't capture Baku and your machines need to consume wood and pinecones

Spoiler

In reality, If you have few oil:

- you build 27 incredibly expensive synthetic fuel plants, each of which costs as 2 modern battleships.

- you don't attack enemy capital by all your power, but you send your Armies for thousands kilometers away from your victory to die in a frozen hell.

- you commit suicide by attacking a country whose economy is 5 times more powerful than your.

- your most powerful in the world battleships useless idle at the port, throughout the war.

- your super modern jet fighters can't fly

- your peasants gather pinecones and bark of trees to produce a few drops of surrogate fuel for your army

- you lose war to those countries who HAVE oil.

........

I'm a fan of maximum historicity and realism in Hoi and I am absolutely convinced that such a key resource of WW2 (and all of the 20-th century) as Oil, should be implemented in our Game with maximum historicity !

PART 2.

What is 1 oil "droplet" in Hoi2?
​

Does anybody of HOI-players know the answer to this great philosophical question?
Is one oil "droplet" a Crude Oil or a Fuel and how much tons are there in one Hoi-droplet ?

If somebody already studied this question, please give me a link, it will be interesting for me.

But maybe I'll be the first who was able to give correct answer for this question

Here it is:

Hoi oil droplet has a quantum mechanics and it similar to the photon!

At any point of time, your Hoi oil droplet can be OR crude oil OR ship fuel OR motor fuel, depending on what type of resource you need at this point of time.

And I found the exact values of masses for each of these three types of oil droplet,
based on refining technologies of 30-40 years.

If in your DH-mod, armour divisions consume about 6-8 oil droplets per day,
1 oil droplet in your game =

OR 100 tons of Crude Oil
OR 100 tons of Fuel Oil (Fuel Oil for ships)
OR 40 tons of Light Fuel (gasoline for Air and Land units).

How these data were obtained.

To research it, it took me to read a lot of information about oil refining technologies in 30-40 years (before, I knew nothing about oil refining ).

Put simply, oil refining consists of two stages:

1. Primary distillation

2. Сracking process

The first stage is simple and available for all, even for underdeveloped countries.

After primary distillation of crude oil, we get the following fractions:

Fuel Oil (Fuel for ships)
Light Fuel (Fuel for engines)
Gas (used as fuel for this distillation process)
Super Heavy fractions (bitumen, tar, lubricating oils)

In our game we don't use last two fractions (they automatically go into "invisible" economy of our country).
So in our Game we need only two first types of Fuel to move our units - Fuel Oil and Light Fuel.

So, after primary distillation, 2 droplets of Crude Oil give 2 droplets of different Fuel:
1 droplet of Fuel Oil and 1 droplet of Light Fuel, with different mass (!).


Primary distillation gives:

Input__________________________________Output

2 Crude Oil droplets = 1 Fuel Oil droplet + 1 Light Fuel droplet

100% of Crude Oil = 50% of Fuel Oil + 20% of light fuel

200 tons of Crude Oil = 100 tons of Fuel Oil and 40 tons of light fuel


As we can see the primary distillation gives to us a lot of Fuel Oil for our warships and a few of light fuel (gasoline for our vehicles and Aircraft)

Thermal Сracking process enables us to squeeze more gasoline from Fuel Oil oil surplus.
But this is advanced technology, and not much countries in 30-40-th years have plants for cracking process.

Thermal Сracking process in 30-th years

Input__________________Output

100% of Fuel Oil = 40% of light fuel

100 tons of Fuel Oil = 40 tons of light fuel

Thus, developed countries can transform any unnecessary amount of Fuel Oil in Light Fuel

As we can see in both processes:

1 Hoi-droplet = 100 tons of Fuel Oil = 40 tons of Light Fuel

To get both these different Fuel droplets we need 2 droplets of Crude Oil = 200 tons
So 1 droplet of Crude Oil = 100 tons

So, 1 Hoi-droplet = OR 100 tons of Crude Oil = OR 100 tons of Fuel Oil = OR 40 tons of Light Fuel

So depending on our task, we can use the needed values of mass:

If we want to give to countries their historical production volume of Crude Oil, we count 1 droplet = 100 tons of Crude Oil
If we want to give historical fuel consumption of warships, we count 1 droplet = 100 tons of Fuel Oil.
If we want to give historical fuel consumption of land/air units, we count 1 droplet = 40 tons of Light Fuel.
If we want to give to countries their historical production volume of Synthetic Fuel, we count 1 droplet = 40 tons of Synthetic Fuel.
(There was no any "synthetic oil" in reality (!), there was only Synthetic Fuel !)

P.S.
No doubt, oil have varying quality. USA super light crude oil after primary distillation gives much more light fuel than Soviet heavy crude oil.
I took the value "20% light fuel from 100% crude oil" as any average value for all world oil.
In my concept, "Light Fuel" have some Light Diesel. "Fuel Oil" have some Heavy Diesel.

 

[Nick3210]

PART 3.​

How much Hoi-Oil droplets should units to consume in game?
​

Calculation of correct (realistic) Fuel consumption in Hoi for different units is:
- easy for ships
- difficult for land units
- incredibly difficult for Air units (Especially taking into account the big Game problem/exploit, when air units consume zero Fuel if flying only during the day and not flying in 24.00 )

Warships Fuel consumption

It's easy because there are accurate data of the maximum of cruising range and fuel capacity for each warship of 2WW.

But it's not easy because all these data are calculated for completely different % of speed and cannot be used directly (!)

It requires a lot of calculations to find the correct value of fuel consumption for individual economical speed of warship. This is a theme for a separate Large Tractate about warships in Hoi and perhaps I will write it the future.

Briefly:

Warships move around the Hoi-map not with their maximum speed which written in their characteristics (!)
I tested DH-Light map (I prefer to play DH-Light map) - my warships moved from Portsmouth to other points of world map with speed about 60% from their Max Speed.
And it is very good and correctly! In reality warships also use "economical" speed about 50% of Max speed. Max speed they use only in battles or in chase.
(I asked Devs, they said this % of speed is Const and can not be changed by modding)

I did not tested % of warship speed on DH-Full map, but it is not a problem to test and to calculate it.

So after we calculate warships speed on Hoi-map (% of their maximum speed!), we should calculate fuel consumption for each warship exactly for this % of speed!
So, for example, in my DH-light mod fuel consumption for each warship calculated for 60% of his Max Speed.
In DH-Full it can be any another % of max speed.

Approximate formula of warships fuel consumption:

Speed ----- Fuel consumption:

100%------- 100%
90%--------- 60%
80%--------- 40%
70%--------- 26%
60%--------- 17%
50%--------- 12%

(I researched official results of WW2-warships tests on the "Test mile" and based on this, deduced this average chart. It is approximately universal for all WW2 warships)

We can see that, for example, "economical" 60% speed needs 6 (!) times less Fuel than 100% speed!

For example, for 60% from Max speed I got the following data:

Bismarck (Germany) - 3.6 droplets per day ( 3.6 x 100 tons of Fuel Oil = 360 tons of Fuel Oil per day)
King George V (UK) - 2.6 droplets per day
North Carolina (USA) - 1.9 droplets per day
Iowa (USA) - 3.1 droplets per day
Yamato (Japan) - 3.6 droplets per day
Nagato (Japan) - 2.2 droplets per day
Queen Elizabeth (UK) - 1.7 droplets per day
Hood (UK) - 3.5 droplets per day

Cruisers:

Cleveland (USA) - 1.1 droplets per day
Baltimore (USA) - 1.8 droplets per day
Mogami (Japan) - 2.0 droplets per day
Deutschland (Germany) - 1.2 droplets per day ( Achtung! It's not Fuel Oil, it's Diesel Fuel !
So, 1.2 x 40 tons of Light Fuel = 48 tons of Diesel Fuel per day)

Destroyers:

About 0.6 droplets per day for ONE Destroyer (USA)

Submarines:

VII-C (Germany) - 0.075 droplets per day for ONE. (Diesel Fuel !)
IX (Germany) - 0.12 droplets per day for ONE. (Diesel Fuel !)

As we can see the fuel consumption is individually for each of warships and should not be primitive like - "every new level up, gives + 0.4 oil droplets per day"

All ships Fuel Consumption and Range for 60% of Max speed:

Spoiler

And this is my simple calculator of warships Fuel Consumption and max Range

Spoiler

Land units Fuel consumption

Above was the "easiest" case of determining the fuel consumption - ships
Now it will be a difficult case - Land Units.

I used 2 methods and then I compared their results and took the average.

1. Determine unit movement speed on the map. Take armor division, send it in different points on map (no rivers, hills and other obstacles!) and note the Time. Then Google real geographic distances between these points and calculate How much real kilometers unit runs per day.

Like with warships, I didn't tested speed of armor divisions on DH-Full Map, but it's no problem to test it.
I tested my lovely DH-Light map and I got about 100 kilometers per day for unit with Speed = 10 (Tested on Germany and West USSR provinces)

Then we calculate Fuel consumption of all engines in division.
It's not easy because even divisions of one country had different Staff.
We need to take any average Staff for our calculating.

For example, calculating for pre-war soviet Light Tank division:

Spoiler

Actual fuel consumption will always be higher because division is not moving in a direct line!
About 6 droplets per day wil be adequate value for this type of division.
But in reality divisions never had so much vehicles as on paper. So it can be 5 droplets per day.

2. Another method is to search in internet ready information about fuel consumption of divisions in 2WW
I still have not found ready information about fuel consumption per day for divisions.
But I found information about Wehrmacht fuel consumption during Poland, France, USSR
blitzkrieg.

Poland blitzkrieg - about 100 000 tons of Fuel (approximately 75% for land divisions and 25% for air forses). As we remember it took about 3 weeks.
So, 100 000 tons / 23 days / 40 tons Light Fuel = about 110 Hoi-droplets per day.

France - about 240 000 tons of Fuel in month.
240 000 / 30 / 40 = about 200 Hoi-droplets per day.

June-August 1941 - maximum of Wehrmacht fuel consumption, about 400 000 tons of Fuel in month.
400 000 / 30 / 40 = about 330 Hoi-droplets per day.

So I made the exact historical number of Wehrmacht divisions and fighted
And compared fuel consumption per day in HOI with the real fuel consumption of Wehrmacht.

As a result of both methods I made:

Armour division - 6 droplets per day (2 tank regiments + 1 motorized regiment)
Light Armour division - 5 droplets per day (2 light tank regiments + 1 motorized regiment)
Mechanized division - 4,5 droplets per day (1 tank regiment + 2 motorized regiments)
Motorized division - 3.5 droplets per day (1 tank battalion + 3 motorized regiments)

But perhaps fuel consumption of land units can be 20% more for all.
(I took minimum possible values to help Germany)

Don't forget that even "standard" infantry divisions in 1939 should consume oil
They also have a few vehicles.

And I remember, this calculation is for 1 Hoi oil droplet = 100 tons of Crude Oil = 40 tons of Light Fuel (diesel/gasoline).

Now you can check your Hoi:
If Bismarck and Tirpitz together consume as much Hoi-Oil-droplets as one full Tank division, your balance of oil consumption between naval and land units is not bad!


Air units Fuel consumption

Until air units consume zero Fuel if flying only during the day and not flying in 24.00, it it doesn't matter

Fuel consumption of aircraft depends from:
- how many airplanes is in one air unit in your DH-mod
- what % of airplanes of one air unit are simultaneously in the air
- how many flights in day airplanes of one air unit do

So you can make any you want value of Fuel consumption of Air Units and take into account only good game balance.
Germany should not be doomed in Game (as it was in reality) because of too high Fuel consumption of Air units
But in reality aircraft consumed incredibly huge amounts of fuel and terribly ravaged fuel reserves of all countries.

 

[Nick3210]

PART 4.

World Oil in 1930-1940.
(the main Part of this Tractate)​

Well, now we know how much Crude Oil and Fuel are in one Hoi-droplet and how much Fuel units consume!

And the last and the main step on the way to the most historical implementation of Oil in our Game is correct and historical implementation of World Oil Production.

And all Hoi-games have a big problems with it.
I watched Oil Production in Hoi-2, DH, Hoi-3, Hoi-4 all of them have very incorrect and unrealistic values.

And the only reason, the main mistake is: all countries in world have NO Civil Oil Consumption !!!
It is absolutely impossible to make correct realistic economy of world oil without Civil Oil Consumption !

For example, let's check two major (after USA) oil-producing countries :

Open DH-Full, see USSR and Venezuela have roughly the same number of oil, about 110 droplets per day.
Is it correct values? Let's check!

Google information about pre-war world's oil production.
I use this (Michael Brooks, "Oil and foreign policy", 1949, in Russian translation):

Spoiler

Venezuela, 1938 - 28 000 000 tons of Crude oil per year.

Brooks gives data for all countries except the USSR, ok, USSR is not a problem for me

USSR, 1938 - 30 200 000 tons of Crude oil per year.
USSR, 1940 - 31 100 000 tons of Crude oil per year.

So, at first glance it seems that DH-devs made correct (approximately equal) oil values for Venezuela and USSR, isn't it?

NO !!!!

Venezuela have only 4 million people and is not industrial country!
USSR have 170 million people and is industrial country with half-motorized large agriculture!

So, Venezuela Civil Oil Consumption is about 140 000 tons of Crude oil per year.
This is about 0.5% of Oil production. Half percent!
And Venezuela can use for Army needs and for Export 99.5 % of their Oil !

And now look at USSR.
In 1938-1940 USSR could find only about 1 mln tons per year for Oil export.
Because the rest of USSR oil (31 - 1 = 30 mln tons !!) was devoured by domestic civilian consumption and by Army!
By my estimation, without Army needs, USSR Civil Oil consumption can be taken as minimum about 22 mln tons per year.

Therefore, the real quantity of USSR Oil for Army needs and for Export is about 9 mln tons!
So, USSR should have 3 times less "free Oil" (Oil for Army and for Export) than Venezuela.

Not equal as it is now, but 3 times less!

How much it will be in Hoi-droplets?

Venezuela:

Crude Oil production = 28 mln tons / 365 days / 100 tons in one Hoi-droplet = 767 droplets per day.
Yes, if your Tank divisions use about 6-8 droplets per day, Venezuela should produce 767 droplets per day, not 110!
Civil Oil consumption = 140 000 tons / 365 days / 100 tons in one Hoi-droplet = 4 droplets per day.

So,
Venezuela produse 767 droplets per day and about 4 droplets from them should be eliminated by Civil Oil consumption.

USSR:

Crude Oil production = 31 mln tons / 365 days / 100 tons in one Hoi-droplet = 850 droplets per day.
Yes, 850 droplets per day, not 110!
Civil Oil consumption = 22 mln tons / 365 days / 100 tons in one Hoi-droplet = 600 droplets per day.

So,
USSR produse 850 droplets per day and about 600 droplets from them should be eliminated by Civil Oil consumption.

Romania:

Romania produse 155 droplets of Crude Oil per day and about 35 droplets from them should be eliminated by Civil Oil consumption.

Germany (before Anschluss):

Crude Oil - 16 droplets per day
Synthetic Fuel - 110 droplets per day
Alcohol Fuel - 14 droplets per day

Total production = 140 droplets per day

Civil Oil consumption = 304 droplets per day

So, you can see, Germany forced to buy on international market as minimum 164 droplets per day only for Civil Oil consumption needs, excluding Army needs!

And exactly This is true realism and historicity in game!

Full details of German/Romania/Italy oil taken from here:
"Oil as a Factor in the German War Effort, 1933-1945 (Thomas J. Ford, 1946)"
http://bookre.org/reader?file=1343898

---------------------

Now, I hope everyone understands why not only correct implementation of Oil Production is imprtant, but correct implementation of Сivil Oil Consumption is imprtant too!


Peace-time / war-time factor

Сivil Oil Consumption has another important aspect - peace-time / war-time factor!
If your country is in war, Сivil Oil Consumption is usually reduced about two times (50% from peace-time).
But some countries have other coefficients.
USA and UK Сivil Oil Consumption during 2WW was reduced not so much.
Germany, on the contrary, showed the wonders of oil saving in Civil Oil Consumption.

Concessions!

I hope you're a big boys and you suspect that poor Venezuela сould not be owner of their Oil?
Yes, quite true!
If any impudent country has 767 (!!!) Oil-droplets per day, our sacred duty is to bring them some Democracy (from our Arsenal), isn't it?

That's fact, in that time only 2 countries was owners of their oil - USSR and Mexico (Mexico nationalized their oil industry in 1938)

The Lords of all the rest World Oil were Anglo-Saxon robbers Corporations.

There were different ways to obtain this oil - official contracts with payment in oil/fuel/money/weapons, gifts, bribes, intimidations, coups, revolutions and other.

But standard average market price of Oil Concessions in 1930-th years was about 20% from extracted Crude Oil. Only after several decades enslaved countries have achieved at least 50% portion.

So, Venezuela in our Game should produse 767 droplets per day, and 80% should go to USA and UK. (in proportion: 70% to USA, 30% to UK)

And exactly This is true realism and historicity in game!

Venezuela:

Crude Oil Production = 767 droplets per day

430 droplets per day go to USA (no payment)
184 droplets per day go to UK (no payment)
4 droplets per day eliminated by Civil Oil consumption

149 droplets per day can be used for Army needs and for Export.
So, Germany and Japan have possibility to buy in Venezuela not more than 149 droplets per day.


Finally table

World Oil Production / Civil Consumption / Concessions

Spoiler

At this moment I use these values.

For example, from this table, everyone can see what an economic monster was USA before 2WW.
USA produced and consumed more Oil/Fuel than all other countries of the world together!
Thank you God, now they are not so cool

It's not easy to find accurate data of Civil Oil Consumption in 1930-th for all countries in world, so we need to use any approximate formulas, if we don't have accurate historical data.
Fundamentally Civil Oil Consumption depends from Industrial power, Population and living standard.

For example, when I found information that Mexico Civil Oil Consumption was about 100 tons Oil (1 droplet) per day for one million people, I applied this proportion to all other countries of South America and I think this is quite correct.
Of course European countries have more high Civil Oil Consumption standards.

If anybody have more accurate values of Oil Production/Civil Oil Consumption/Concessions for any countries - show me. I'd be glad to use the most accurate values.

To look at realistic balance of Oil in the World and how this concept work you can in my DH-Light mod.

 

[Nick3210]

PART 5.
​

Сorrect implementation of world oil in HOI. What new Modding tools Game needs?
​

It's nice that we don't need to wait Devs and we can do ourselves exactly such Hoi as we want!
But sometimes we do not have enough available Modding tools.
In particular, Modding tools for implementing historical oil in Game is very limited, and I would like to have more opportunities for it.

Now I have found only one way of implementation Civil Oil Consumption - to use command:

command = { type = free_oil value = -200 } # Domestic civilian Oil consumption

And to make such events for each country in world on the first day of the Game.

I was too lazy to make these events for each country in the world, and therefore countries in South and North America got Oil Production = real Oil Production - Civil Oil consumption.

Why it is unacceptable for other countries, who have Oil Production > Civil Oil consumption ?

Imagine that we make USSR Oil by both these ways.

1. USSR Oil Production = 850 droplets per day.
USSR Civil Oil consumption = 600 droplets per day.

2. USSR Oil Production = 850 droplets per day - 600 droplets per day = 250 droplets per day

In the first case, Baku will produce 595 droplets per day (70% of all USSR Oil)
In the second case, Baku will produce only 175 droplets per day.

What variant is more realistic, fairly and honestly for gameplay and for Germany?
Of course, the second one!

If Germany will be able to seize Baku, in the first case it will get 297 droplets per day (50% non-national antibonus)
In the second case - only 87 droplets per day.

What is 87 droplets per day for Germany in 1941-1942 in our Game, especially in multiplayer? It's nothing! It's funny!

One of the most serious fails in all Hoi is that Germany after capture of Baku gets inadequately small amount of oil !

Baku is an El Dorado! The quantity of Baku Oil should be made realistically and solve all Germany's problems with oil !

And for this reason all the rest Oil-Produced countries, which can be captured, should to use only the first way: separate Oil Production and separate Civil Oil consumption!

War-time Civil Oil consumption

Again, I don't see any other way besides using

command = { type = free_oil value = 100 } # War-time domestic civilian Oil consumption

for each country when it enters the war.

So you can see how many events are needed now for correct World Oil implementation!
It is very inconvenient and ugly!

Civil Oil Consumption of occupied provinces

And, now, I don't see no one good way to account Oil Consumption of occupied provinces
But this is a very important aspect!

In reality, Germany's (with Austria) war-time Civil Oil Consumption was:

1940 - 135 droplets per day (about 5 mln tons per year)
1941 - 114 droplets per day (about 4.2 mln tons per year)
(Germany from year to year increased the efficiency of Civil Oil saving)

But Civil Oil Consumption of occupied Europe took from Germany about 100 droplets per day! (about 3.5 mln tons per year!)

OK, we know when and what countries Germany usually annexed, so I just stupidly added +100 droplets per day of Civil Oil Consumption to Germany in 1940 by event.

But what if the game will be not standard? What if The Greate Poland will annex all europe?
How to transfer Civil Oil Consumption of occupied Eastern provinces of USSR from USSR to Germany?
To create a separate special event for every province in the game?

Therefore, there is only one normal way for good implementation of Civil Oil Consumption in Hoi - to introduce a new resource (anti-resource!) type on the Map:

Civil Oil Consumption "resource"

It should be exactly the same resource like Oil but it should reduce Oil reserves of country!

I tried to use it!
I tried to enter negative values of oil in provinces!
But it's not working!!!
-1, -10 or -100 Oil in province always = 0 in Game !
And it's bad !!!
If it would be possible to enter negative values of oil in provinces, it would be not a bad tool for implementation of Civil Oil Consumption!

But special separate "Civil Oil Consumption Resource" is better!

Because it is necessary to have separate "War-time coefficient" for this resourse in Misc-file.
If country is in war - "Civil Oil Consumption Resource" in all provinces of this country should be 50% from normal (peace-time) values.

And it would be good to have special Minister's perk "-25% of Civil Oil Consumption in non-national occupied provinces"

"Oil Consumption Resource" is proportional to IC, MP and Infra of provinces.
More IC, MP and Infra in province - more "Oil Consumption Resource" this province should have.

Incidentally, when soviet "evacuation of industry" event happened, not only IC in provinces should be changed, but Oil Consumption in these provinces should be changed too!

So, finally, here is my wishes for next Patches:

1. Introduce in Game "Province's Civil Oil Consumption Anti-Resource" (negative oil values).

2. Fix exploit when Air Day-Missions do not consume Oil.

3. Separate Oil stockpile Limit and supplies Limit!
(I want have 50 000 limit for Oil and 50 000 limit for Supplies but it's impossible! They have unchangeable proportion!)

PART 6.
​

Synthetic fuel in 2WW and in Hoi.
​

Hoi-2 are more than 10 years!
It's time to die for absolutely incorrect "energy_to_oil" mechanics!

There were no any "synthetic oil"! There were Synthetic Fuel only!

It's impossible suddenly start to produce Fuel from Coal!
At first you need to build an incredibly expensive plants!

One Synthetic Fuel Plant has a cost as two modern battleships!
It's much more profitable to buy Сude Oil on the world market and refining it, than to build Synthetic Fuel Plans!

Only one country in the world have built a lot of Synthetic Fuel Plants and produced a lot of Synthetic Fuel - Germany!
USA, UK also had a few Synthetic Fuel Plants but their share was negligible!
But in DH any Honduras can make "oil from energy"!

So, "energy_to_oil" mechanics must die!
DH needs a normal new type of Map Infrastructure - Synthetic Fuel Plants !
Only a few countries should historically have them from start!
Synthetic Fuel Plants should be incredibly expensive and Germany should historically build them by events, not by IC!
All other countries should not build Synthetic Fuel Plant because it's incredibly expensive and unprofitable!

What is a power of one Synthetic Fuel Plant?

About 27 German Synthetic Fuel Plans in 1943 gived about 400 droplets per day (5.8 mln tons per year), so one Synthetic Fuel Plant give about 15 droplets per day. Аnd it cost is as two Bismarcks!

Here is Germany's progress in Synthetic Fuel Plants:

Spoiler

In my mod I banned "energy_to_oil" mechanics and made Synthetic Fuel Plans by events like this:

Spoiler

command = { type = free_oil value = -280 } # Germany Domestic civilian Oil consumption without AUS
command = { type = add_prov_resource which = 86 value = 21 where = oil } # Crude oil
command = { type = free_supplies value = -4 } # for Ethyl fuel
command = { type = add_prov_resource which = 299 value = 12 where = oil } # Ethyl fuel
command = { type = free_energy value = -220 } # for synthetic fuel
command = { type = add_prov_resource which = 67 value = 31 where = oil } # synthetic fuel
command = { type = add_prov_resource which = 76 value = 31 where = oil } # synthetic fuel
command = { type = add_prov_resource which = 310 value = 35 where = oil } # synthetic fuel

But it is inconvenient and ugly method!

So, my wish is - please enter in game normal Synthetic Fuel Plants as a new type of Infrastructure!

As you can see in my event, there was also some of alcohol fuel. From "supplies" (from food).
Italy prodused about 10 droplets of alcohol fuel per day.
Germany prodused about 14 droplets of alcohol fuel per day:

Spoiler

So, if any your Tank division have no Org and do not want to Attack, you should know, may be this division got alcohol Fuel droplets from your stockpile

PART 7.
​

Dreams and desires about ideal implementation of world oil in "Darkest Hour-2"
​

The first attempt to more deep realization of world oil was made in Hoi-3.
In addition to Crude Oil they introduced a new resource - Fuel !
Was this attempt successful?

No!
But, why?

Because it was only a half-step on the way to perfect implementation of Oil in Hoi!

I don't see any fundamental progress between Hoi-2 Oil-"droplets" and Hoi-3 Fuel "kegs" !

What is Fuel "keg" in Hoi-3?
Is it Fuel Oil (Fuel for ships) or Light Fuel (Fuel for engines) ??
How can we correctly determine consumption for our ships and for our tanks if they use completely different types of Fuel ?!

As Oil in Hoi-2, Fuel in Hoi-3 is a mix of different types of Fuel and this is the same quantum abstraction!

Hoi-2 "Oil droplet" is an abstract mixture and Hoi-3 "Fuel keg" is an abstract mixture too!
Zero difference, zero progress!

So, what is the full step, we need to do for ideal implementation of world oil in Hoi?

This step is - to introduce both (2 !) key types of Fuel used in reality!

For Hoi-2 mechanics, I use a simplified concept of Fuel Oil (Fuel for ships. It is mix of Fuel Oil and some Heavy Diesel) and Light Fuel (Gasoline and some Light Diesel for air and land units).
(200 tons Crude Oil = 100 tons Fuel Oil + 40 tons Light Fuel)

In reality, aircraft fuel (high quality gasoline) was separate and very deficit type of fuel. But it will be more deep and difficult implementation and we will need to have in game separate Catalytic Cracking Plants. Let's remain it for Darkest Hour-3

Therefore it is more easy to use the simplify concept of Two types of Fuel: Fuel Oil and Light Fuel.

So, to implement this concept we need:

Crude Oil - Map Resourse
Fuel Oil - not map Resourse
Light Fuel - not map Resourse
Civil Oil Consumption - Map "Anti-Resourse" (consumes Crude Oil)

Primary Oil Distillation Plants - Map Infrastructure
Thermal Cracking Plants - Map Infrastructure

How it works?

1 "droplet" of Crude Oil = 100 tons of Crude Oil
1 "keg" of Fuel Oil = 100 tons of Fuel Oil
1 "keg" of Light Fuel = 100 tons of Light Fuel

One Primary Oil Distillation Plant:

Input: 20 droplets of Crude Oil per day
Output: 10 kegs of Fuel Oil and 4 kegs of Light Fuel per day

One Thermal Cracking Plant:

Input: 20 kegs of Fuel Oil per day
Output: 8 kegs of Light Fuel per day


Primary Oil Distillation Plants are cheap and all industrial countries have them from Game start in required amount.
Not developed oil-producing countries (Venezuela, Persia and other) have few Primary Oil Distillation Plants, their main Export product is Cryde Oil.

As we can see, Primary Oil Distillation Plants produce a lot of Fuel Oil but a few Light Fuel.

Thermal Cracking Plants are expensive and only few countries have sufficient number of them (USA, UK, France, Holland). USSR have very few Thermal Cracking Plants and should have a huge problem with Light Fuel from Game start.

Thermal Cracking Plants allow us to turn surplus of our Fuel Oil in Light Fuel !
It should be a button in interface - Switch On / Switch Off of all our Thermal Cracking Plants
(like "enerhy_to_oil" button now)

Provinces should have Civil Oil Consumption in Crude Oil (or in Fuel Oil + Light Fuel if we have no Crude oil).
(If we have no Crude Oil in our stockpile, Civil Oil Consumption should take 5 Fuel Oil and 2 Light Fuel for each 10 Crude Oil of our Civil Oil Consumption)


How do you like this concept?

In my opinion it's amazing!
For the first time in Hoi-history we will have realistic Oil and Fuel !

 

[Nick3210]

reserved

 

[Eugenioso]

Pardon the meddlng, but what is the point of this thread? The abstract numbers of fuel have been known since HOI2 days: One unit of fuel is equivalent to around 10 tonsish of the stuff.

Second, we go into the area of entertainment vs reality: either we get a completely realistic ww2 experience that requires insane and inordinate amount of microing PER INGAME DAY, or a completely bonkers and false experience. DH has gotten the formula down perfectly, a balance of the two, and after HOI2, HOI2DD, HOI2ARMA, AoD, Iron Cross, a hundred mods and more, it achieved it. There is little more to improve of the HOI2 engine, and HOI3/4 does not fit well with that gamestyle.

One thing that could work out good would be modding HOI3 to be more like DH.

 

[Nick3210]

Pardon the meddlng, but what is the point of this thread? The abstract numbers of fuel have been known since HOI2 days: One unit of fuel is equivalent to around 10 tonsish of the stuff.

I don't know where you got this values but it is absolutely not correct and not realistic.
If your tank division consumes 6-8 Hoi-drops of fuel per day (as in Hoi-2), this means that 1 Hoi-drop = 100 tons of crude oil = 40 tons of light fuel, as it was shown by my calculations.
Perhaps nobody else had studied this issue.

Second, we go into the area of entertainment vs reality: either we get a completely realistic ww2 experience that requires insane and inordinate amount of microing PER INGAME DAY, or a completely bonkers and false experience.

Historical oil balance in the world gives to the game right atmosphere and realism for Germany, Japan, USSR, UK and USA.
If you don't like historicity and realism in Hoi you can play Hoi-4, ahahah ))

P.S.
Yes, I remember, in Hoi-2 by "Automedon event" Japan get 1000 Hoi-oil-drops for 10 000 tons of real gasoline.
Yes, It means Hoi-2 devs counted 1 Hoi-oil-drop = 10 tons of real gasoline.
But it does mean that Hoi-2 devs made a mistake in oil consumption of all units and in oil production of all countries.
If 1 Hoi-oil-drop = 10 tons of real gasoline, tank division should consume 4 times more fuel, not 7 drops per day (as in Hoi-2), but 30 (!) drops per day.
I prefer to keep the current and more habitual values of units oil consumption and count 1 Hoi-oil-drop = 40 tons of gasoline, if tank division consume 7 Hoi-oil-drops per day.

 

[Eugenioso]

First of all, sir, ive been playing HOI2 since it came out.

Second, the game has reached the peak capacity of the engine.

Third, you are calling out the DEVELOPERS on making a mistake on fuel consumption. Might as well go to a church and say "Thou shalt not kill! except that the writer made a mistake, he meant "Thou shalt kill!"

Fourth, the game's fuel system was condensed so it would be entertaining and balanced while still keeping a realistic factor, not so that it would be 100% realistic. If that were the case, getting oil would involve an easy 3 million steps: extract it, carry it back from the location specified, lose some on the way to partisan attacks, place it on the conversion factories (which you must build, obviously), extract the 10 different elements that you can get out of them (asphalt for roads, something else for tyres, fuel, etc), send it back on trains to the frontline, send your units to a fuel dump manually, have them load up the fuel, then repeat about 300 more times for every division you have.

Fifth, the engine is not capable of doing so. AoD had a supply system akin to HOI3, but the game was still not up to specs. I would love to see DH change the engine so we would get realistic supply lines, but i believe thats either a long way off or not of interest.

Sixth, the game already has a very balanced fuel

atmosphere and realism

for all the belligerents. The US has insane amounts of fuel, the UK can get supplies by convoys from all their indian colonies, Germany is limited by their oil so they rely on conversion, trade and conquest, the USSR has Georgia and Co. to supply their needs, but they can still need more for the huge armored force they can get, Japan can hoard up fuel but they must conquer the indies to get to those sweet oil spots, and Italy is forced to either forego a lot of ARM or MOT or go invade the mid east.

 

[Nick3210]

First of all, sir, ive been playing HOI2 since it came out.

And what does it mean? ))
I play Hoi-2 10 years and 5 from them multiplayer only. And what?

Sixth, the game already has a very balanced fuel for all the belligerents.

No. Now game has very not balanced fuel for all the belligerents.
Germany in reality produced much more synthetic fuel and should get much more fuel from Baku, Iran and Iraq!
Japan on the contrary needs to have more fuel problems than it is now. All the oil of Indonesia and Burma should not be enough to ensure a constant activity of Japanese fleet!
USSR should have a huge problem with production of gasoline! Now USSR has no problems with fuel and this is absolutely incorrect and not historical.
UK and USA should have much more oil than now and so they should earn much more money/supply from oil sale.

Third, you are calling out the DEVELOPERS on making a mistake on fuel consumption. Might as well go to a church and say "Thou shalt not kill! except that the writer made a mistake, he meant "Thou shalt kill!"

Ahahah. I'm Hoi-2 fan and Hoi-2 is my favorite game. But Hoi-2 Devs are not Gods ))
Yes, they invented and implemented really genius idea and concept.
But the details of Game made very carelessly and not enough realistic.
So Hoi-2 needs a lot of modding to be more realistic and historical.
And Oil/fuel is one of Game aspect which needs to be improved.

Fourth, the game's fuel system was condensed so it would be entertaining and balanced while still keeping a realistic factor, not so that it would be 100% realistic. If that were the case, getting oil would involve an easy 3 million steps: extract it, carry it back from the location specified, lose some on the way to partisan attacks, place it on the conversion factories (which you must build, obviously), extract the 10 different elements that you can get out of them (asphalt for roads, something else for tyres, fuel, etc), send it back on trains to the frontline, send your units to a fuel dump manually, have them load up the fuel, then repeat about 300 more times for every division you have.

I made correct and realistic oil in my mod. Although the game has not a lot of convenient tools for this work.
And absolutely no complications of micro-management has arisen ))
Correctly implemented oil does not complicate the game, this makes the game only better.
We play Hoi-2 multiplayer with correct and realistic oil, have a lot of fun and we do not "repeat about 300 more times" anything ))

But it would be much more convenient if DH will have, for example, synthetic fuel plants such as in AOD. Сurrent mechanics is very awkward to implement German synthetic fuel plants building program.

 

[unmerged(18329)]

I have some information from a German book with the title >Ölkrieg< (oil-war). It was published by Wegweiser Verlag GmbH in 1939.

 

[unmerged(18329)]

If it is allowed I would like to say something to the introduction of this post. Germany did not attack the Soviet Union for fun and it had no choice but to built these extreme expensive facilities for synthetic fuel, because it needed to be independent from deliveries over sea. The british strategy in World War 1 had shown, that it was their plan to cut off supplies for Germany. Without synthetic chemicals it would not even been possible for Germany to defend itself in World War 1, because at that time salpetre from Chile was needed to make ammunition.

 

[Eugenioso]

Just because this is back, fix it then nick123, fix the engine. This thread is stupid and senseless, literally just a guy saying 'the game doesnt model fuel realistically 100%'. Yeah, everyone here knows that. If you want to try and make hoi5 with a realistic fuel and supply system go for it.

 

[unmerged(18329)]

Eugenioso, it is stupid and senseless to play a game that simulates war. I think Nick3210 has shared some good ideas for oil economy in game. And it does not need HoI5 to put it into a game. I put this into >Arsenal of Democracy<.

Nick3210 wrote: "you commit suicide by attacking a country whose economy is 17 times more powerful than your." Did you mean the USA? Germany did not attack the USA. Otherwise the US-diplomacy tried to urge other countries to make war against Germany. The US intrigues concerning Poland, England and France were the true reason for WW2.

 

[Nick3210]

I mean Japan

 

[unmerged(18329)]

Hello Nick3210,
I have a question that is a little of topic, but you seem to me very competent and reliable. So I hope you can excuse my question. The word >soviet< in >Soviet Union< is that a russian word or a foreign word?

 

[Nick3210]

The word >soviet< in >Soviet Union< is that a russian word or a foreign word?

russian word
Советы (soviets) - "collegial representative authorities of public power elected by the population for a certain period of time".

So in the theory, the "soviets" mean maximum of true people's democracy, ahahah

Just because this is back, fix it then nick123, fix the engine. This thread is stupid and senseless, literally just a guy saying 'the game doesnt model fuel realistically 100%'. Yeah, everyone here knows that. If you want to try and make hoi5 with a realistic fuel and supply system go for it.

Lol, you still can't calm... after 4 (!) years from your first comment?! ahahah, *facepalm*.

Just for you to know - I don't need to fix the engine.
I'm so incredibly genius, that I implemented full Oil-Realism in all aspects of the Game, in current Hoi-2(DH) engine!
And I did it a long time ago, 4 years ago.

So this is exactly your comments are really "stupid and senseles", *facepalm*.

Calm down, boy. Grandpa Nick is brilliant genius *halo*, just admit it and enjoy my incredibly realistic implementation of Oil in all Hoi-history!

 

[InfArmMot]

Important thread.