world conquest still possible?

[unmerged(281390)]

I'm asking myself since a relativly long time, if it's possible or not.

Currently I am playing a 5.2-beta together with a personal mod which removes the magistrate necessity (should make it easier... though still not really thinkable).

I am mostly playing a nation in HRE, which is imo the only thinkable way to do it at all (together with the last HRE decision).

The problems I encountered during my tries are those:

- massive war exhaustion as soon you're going east and you have to fight the hordes, meaning thousands of rebels
- lack of good (cored) provinces with enough income to maintain a strong army, as soon you go east, also this means a lack of scientific progress over time
- necessity to uphold a navy, if you want to get some isles/isolated provinces (this is very disturbing, if you concentrate on the continents)
- the western countries (e.g. portual, spain, later england) will make colonies in america, thus you have to either kill them before of 1500 (which is almost impossible) or you have to have an eye on america, too (damned scrolling all the time )


Overall I think it's not doable this way, even if I try selling (donating) provinces to another vasallized HRE-country.

Eventually it might be doable, if one starts as england, forms GBR, goes to france, cultural shift, forms france, joins HRE, kills spain and portugal... though still you will have many problems from those many provinces and massive war exhaustion, if you're doing many wars yourself. If you don't do it yourself (and leave it to the other HRE-countries) you might end up with seeing a good part of the world not conquered at the end of the game. Mostly I see chinese or japanese provinces as problem - there are many of those and after 1650 you will get 2 points of infamy for each.

So... has anyone managed it recently and how did you do?

 

[unmerged(106985)]

BB-limit WC with England by Prawnstar:


http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?591266-The-Historic-Inevitabilty-of-Epic-Failure

 

[Mods]

He's able to keep WE down to an acceptable level while being at war pretty much all the time, he pretty much mastered the game (except for naval combat ).

 

[Ranger Blue]

Abusing PU's/inheritance would be the easiest way to do it. Starting as England/France/Castille, PU the other two + Portugal, then focus on the cheap muslim provinces in Africa/middle east, using time spent in between those wars to vassalise HRE electors and PU other bigger christian countries. Then after 1500, start building up imperial authority and passing reforms, so that eventually you can inherit the HRE. This gives you most of Europe (+whatever has already been colonised) for almost no infamy, so you can use all that on Africa/Asia using the cheap holy war CB, before using imperialism and R/CR to finish up what's left.

Actually achieving this is a different matter, due to factors you already mentioned, such as affording the large army required, managing WE and so on, but then, you wouldn't want a WC to be easy now would you?

 

[unmerged(80402)]

PU + holy war, and forming HRE. Recipe for world conquest.

EDIT: I would also add diplovassalization here - 1 infamy per province is like holy war.

 

[unmerged(281390)]

The AAR by Prawnstar is quite impressive - will have a deeper look into it, to see how he managed the problems with war exhaustion and later on the scientific progress - though I think generally I am quite far from achieving this ever.

For me it's not so much the problem to conquer so many provinces (by all different means), but to uphold a good level of army/progress/income/war exhaustion. Whenever I have very many provinces I am a few levels behind in progress and have many revolts - will have to see, if I find a way to reduce these problems.

 

[GaiusC]

Had the game ended in 1840 instead of 1820, I would've done a clean WC with Holland, on DW 5.1.
Main problem was that after forming HRE in roughly 1510, I couldn't fully exploit the Holy War because I had a screen of Orthodox countries blocking my path East and N Africa was nearly entirely Spanish.
End result was that I still had something like 100 provinces to eat in 1800 and had to go over the infamy limit. Which makes matters worse because everyone attacks you or guarantees everyone else, and you can't attack anyone during truces because you just don't have any valid targets anymore. I ended up editing the game to remove the "big provincial revolt due to high infamy" event - other nasty events are manageable if you only play for 15-20 years - so that I could achieve a WC with something like 95 infamy in 1818 - because I annexed provinces for full infamy costs when I would've been able to eat them up for 1/4 if I had the opportunity to DOW them independently.

Then, the whole game wasn't even intended as a WC, I just wanted to form Netherlands and get all their provinces - at the time achievements were still on. Then, seeing how I had to become HRE to be powerful enough to take the last Netherlands provinces from Burgundy, and was basically 2 reforms short of forming the HRE, I decided to try a WC after I formed it - seeing how big it was, having 1/3 of France thanks to blobbing Burgundy and Bohemia who expanded into Ukraine. Having early on a PU with a massive Scotland that got most of Britain and went on a colonising spree helped, too - though I had to wait 250 years to inherit...

 

[cacra]

BB-limit WC with England by Prawnstar:


http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?591266-The-Historic-Inevitabilty-of-Epic-Failure

]
That was in 5.1 though. OP wants to know if it can be done in 5.2

 

[DDRJake]

My 2 WCs were both done as hordes. Golden Horde, which should still be possible in 5.2, and Ryukyu, which is no longer possible (cannot collapse into a horde in 5.2)

 

[alexti]

I'm asking myself since a relativly long time, if it's possible or not.

Currently I am playing a 5.2-beta together with a personal mod which removes the magistrate necessity (should make it easier... though still not really thinkable).

What specifically in 5.2 might make it impossible, you think? I haven't noticed any changes that would have large effect. Manpower is probably the biggest one, but fighting bloody wars was never a good strategy for WC anyway, so the overall effect will only result in minor slow down. Release-and-conquer exploit was removed. AI seems to be a bit better at naval warfare. Neither of those should have much effect.

 

[unmerged(281390)]

What specifically in 5.2 might make it impossible, you think? I haven't noticed any changes that would have large effect. Manpower is probably the biggest one, but fighting bloody wars was never a good strategy for WC anyway, so the overall effect will only result in minor slow down. Release-and-conquer exploit was removed. AI seems to be a bit better at naval warfare. Neither of those should have much effect.

Well, I wasn't specifically asking for 5.2 - I had the same problems also in earlier versions. (I didn't have a look into the AARs before )

Mainly its bad technology levels, if I own very many provinces and even more disturbing the high war exhaustion. Also I forgot to mention the problems with stability

Regarding Prawnstar's AAR as I see it, the hordes are much weaker in 5.2, thus you would need more BB to get provinces in that area - maybe that is a problem, idk

Manpower is a problem in 5.2 when getting all those low value provinces in mid-asia. England doesn't start anymore as empire, thus getting holy war casus belli will need a longer time if you take this start.

Idk, if there is a change in the HRE-rules in 5.2 - I remember having joined the HRE earlier on - but I think now this is more difficult, because the emporer must have less provinces than you do - thus relativly problematic, if one wants to go the HRE-way.

 

[GaiusC]

I'm not sure why the emphasis on Horde lands in Central Asia. These provinces are crap, but are free, and should get dealt with in the course of your main conquests. They are surely not a main part of the WC by themselves and should be annexed nearly as an afterthought, I think. Go for N Africa, India, China, SE Asia.

As for war exhaustion, I mostly see 3 cases where you'll get a lot of it:
- war against a really big Russian power, with decent fortifications, in winter.
- war to dismantle HRE, specially if you're quite late in game and have to deal with forts 4 all over Germany
- conquering, occupying and annexing the hordes of Central Asia (which means it might be a good idea just to secure them, seal them from stronger neighbours, and only integrate them when you have several years of quiet without a large war going on - and also, wait until you have a large empire with a large economy and large force limit so that you can have 2 or even 3 medium-sized stacks that will garrison the whole area)

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Well, hordes are very good for WC, when you play them, because they don't need to use diplomats, and don't gain infamy. Of them, best are tims, and GH, which is fairly well known fact.

 

[Dustman]

Well, hordes are very good for WC, when you play them, because they don't need to use diplomats, and don't gain infamy. Of them, best are tims, and GH, which is fairly well known fact.

... if HRE is dealt with ASAP. Starting from 1500 they'll just walk over you.

 

[panionios]

massive war exhaustion as soon you're going east and you have to fight the hordes, meaning thousands of rebels

I am actually experiencing the exact opposite effect since 5.2. Almost no war exhaustion despite having 30k plus troops going around GH -used to do this on purpose to get the Liberum Veto but I no longer surpass 1 WE no matter what I do.

 

[aniuby]

If you start as a large European nation you should be able to do a WC below the infamy limit with time to spare. In my experience in DW 5.1, I used England, and exploited forced personal unions but not the release-reconquest trick. I completed it around 1760, when the first colonial rebels had just appeared, and before I even got Revolution/Counter Revolution. Recently I also managed to form HRE with Austria before the Reformation, which is a perfect set-up for a WC, so there was no more need to play that game seriously.

I found that the limiting factor was the need for diplomats and colonists - diplomats to start/stop multiple wars, keep PU relations up, annex vassals, and bribe HRE members. many of whom were vassals, and colonists to take horde lands and seal off the colonial coastline from my vassals/PU juniors. I joined the Empire after moving my capital to Paris and adding it to the Empire after becoming Emperor, but only formed HRE relatively late so I could get the most of the Emperor bonuses. Staying Catholic and Narrowminded also helps with infamy, stability, missionaries, diplomats, and colonists.

Technology should not be a problem as once you've fought a few major wars and taken down the big powers in Europe, you'll pull ahead due to your rivals' sheer amounts of inflation as they run themselves into the red. If they get too uppity just attack them with whatever CB you have, even if you don't take any territory, as it'll help to ruin their economy. Stability can also be managed by avoiding taking your infamy into the red, and prioritising building churches once you're comfortable with your income and manpower. I can't say that I had problems with war exhaustion, except at the beginning and much later when it didn't matter any more.

Lastly, try to time your horde wars to start/end in the same few months so you can plan a 5-year peace for your king's death and inheritance. And don't forget to declare Holy War on everyone in reach in December 1649!

 

[aniuby]

If you start as a large European nation you should be able to do a WC below the infamy limit with time to spare. In my experience in DW 5.1, I used England, and exploited forced personal unions but not the release-reconquest trick. I completed it around 1760, when the first colonial rebels had just appeared, and before I even got Revolution/Counter Revolution. Recently I also managed to form HRE with Austria before the Reformation, which is a perfect set-up for a WC, so there was no more need to play that game seriously.

I found that the limiting factor was the need for diplomats and colonists - diplomats to keep PU relations up and bribe HRE members. many of whom were vassals, and colonists to take horde lands and seal off the colonial coastline from my vassals/PU juniors. I joined the Empire after moving my capital to Paris and adding it to the Empire after becoming Emperor, but only formed HRE relatively late so I could get the most of the Emperor bonuses. Staying Catholic and Narrowminded also helps with infamy, stability, missionaries, diplomats, and colonists.

Technology should not be a problem as once you've fought a few major wars and taken down the big powers in Europe, you'll pull ahead due to your rivals' sheer amounts of inflation as they themselves into the red. If they get too uppity just attack them with whatever CB you have, even if you don't take any territory, as it'll help to ruin their economy. Stability can also be managed by avoiding taking your infamy into the red, and prioritising building churches once you're comfortable with your income and manpower. I can't say that I had problems with war exhaustion, except at the beginning and much later when it didn't matter any more.

Lastly, try to time your horde wars to start/end in the same few months so you can plan a 5-year peace for your king's death and inheritance. And don't forget to declare Holy War on everyone in reach in December 1649!

 

[alexti]

If you don't mind somewhat cheesy tactics WC is not hard. For example, start as Bohemia and form HRE. This way you will have huge starting base (all cored) by 1410. Force PU on anyone large and vassalize smaller countries (Portugal, Brittany etc...) if you can't PU them. This start should give you ok tech speed - Trade-7 before 1450 perhaps. In the meantime you take land off Muslims and hit Eastern Europe with US (you don't even need to conquer them, just hurt them enough so that leave GH alone). After 1450 explore and Holy War everybody, by 1650 there won't be anyone left. Don't touch hordes yet. You can start colonizing them a bit later. This plan leaves a lot of room for errors. With accurate play one can probably complete WC long before 1600, so you can imagine you don't need to be very efficient to finish it before 1821. This was in 5.1, but I haven't seen anything in 5.2 that would change it much.

 

[unmerged(281390)]

Yeah, that is now the plan (I started as Burgundy now, have PUs with FRA, SCO, POR until now)... but how for the heck do you form HRE that fast (best I thought was about 1500 and that was in 5.1)? As I see it, you don't get anymore imperial points from wars against hordes, don't you?

 

[grommile]

Yeah, that is now the plan (I started as Burgundy now, have PUs with FRA, SCO, POR until now)... but how for the heck do you form HRE that fast (best I thought was about 1500 and that was in 5.1)?

Start as Bohemia. Convert yourself to Orthodox by declaring war on, and surrendering to, a small Orthodox country. Then convert the empire to Orthodoxy.