Workers not getting to work has no consequences!

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Co_Karoliina

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Lets see if I can shed some light to this issue!

All workers do not need to get to work. This would simply need too much processing power if all 1 million citizens left to work at the same time. The worker numbers shown in factory information windows are the employees assigned for that building, the ones who can visit it as a work location. Not all of the workers will visit the building at the same time, some might not ever visit it, but they are the ones marked to work in the building. Employees don't need to get to work, but there need to be enough people in the city to assign to each workplace.

If citizens get stuck in traffic they will return to their starting point and abandon the traveling. This mechanic prevents city-wide gridlocks from happening, because when the traffic got that bad, it was very hard for players to see where the actual problem was because the traffic info view showed all roads as congested. Now the traffic jam will stay, but not expand uncontrollably, so it can be found and dealt with. Traffic jams do affect the city, because citizens can't travel to shopping locations, tourists can't travel to shopping locations, goods don't ship to local businesses and raw materials don't reach the industry.

Industry needs connections to receive raw materials and ship goods to outside locations or businesses in the city. For the most tax revenue, you should produce raw materials locally, have industry make them into goods and have local shops sell them. The shared save (Worker bug) has a city that does not even cover the upkeep of the roads with the industry taxes because they do not ship to local commercial areas. All buildings spawn with a small buffer of the items they need (goods for commercial, raw materials for industry) and will only require a shipment once the buffer gets low. In the save's very small city the buffer lasts quite a long time, but if you let the save roll on top speed for about 15 minutes, the buffer empties and commercial starts to need more goods. In a larger city, the buffer is gone fast and thus buildings react to poor connections faster.

So basically goods and raw materials work as agents, but citizens are a combination of agent and statistical model. A good road network makes the city produce more tax revenue, and having public transportation to take citizens to work will benefit the player by generating ticket income. Tourists only spend money in the city if they can reach commercial areas.

The city is quite slow to react to changes, but this was a choice made for stability so you can't accidentally destroy your city by a few poor choices. There's always time to react and fix things.
 

Icarus619

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Lets see if I can shed some light to this issue!

All workers do not need to get to work. This would simply need too much processing power if all 1 million citizens left to work at the same time. The worker numbers shown in factory information windows are the employees assigned for that building, the ones who can visit it as a work location. Not all of the workers will visit the building at the same time, some might not ever visit it, but they are the ones marked to work in the building. Employees don't need to get to work, but there need to be enough people in the city to assign to each workplace.

If citizens get stuck in traffic they will return to their starting point and abandon the traveling. This mechanic prevents city-wide gridlocks from happening, because when the traffic got that bad, it was very hard for players to see where the actual problem was because the traffic info view showed all roads as congested. Now the traffic jam will stay, but not expand uncontrollably, so it can be found and dealt with. Traffic jams do affect the city, because citizens can't travel to shopping locations, tourists can't travel to shopping locations, goods don't ship to local businesses and raw materials don't reach the industry.

Industry needs connections to receive raw materials and ship goods to outside locations or businesses in the city. For the most tax revenue, you should produce raw materials locally, have industry make them into goods and have local shops sell them. The shared save (Worker bug) has a city that does not even cover the upkeep of the roads with the industry taxes because they do not ship to local commercial areas. All buildings spawn with a small buffer of the items they need (goods for commercial, raw materials for industry) and will only require a shipment once the buffer gets low. In the save's very small city the buffer lasts quite a long time, but if you let the save roll on top speed for about 15 minutes, the buffer empties and commercial starts to need more goods. In a larger city, the buffer is gone fast and thus buildings react to poor connections faster.

So basically goods and raw materials work as agents, but citizens are a combination of agent and statistical model. A good road network makes the city produce more tax revenue, and having public transportation to take citizens to work will benefit the player by generating ticket income. Tourists only spend money in the city if they can reach commercial areas.

The city is quite slow to react to changes, but this was a choice made for stability so you can't accidentally destroy your city by a few poor choices. There's always time to react and fix things.

+1 Thanks for the clearance.
This makes a lot of sense - everyone should understand that you can't simulate 1 million cims all going to their work, doing it, and then going back. This simulation how it is now is just fine (for me), maybe it would be nice that industry dies when there is no possibility for cims to reach it, that is something i would like to see in the game.

But still far more better than other recent city-building games ;)
 

Inge Jones

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All workers do not need to get to work. This would simply need too much processing power if all 1 million citizens left to work at the same time.

Do you have any idea what the maximum number of citizens could be that it would be realistic to genuinely simulate making every journey they have to make in theory (eg all leaving for work at the same time and actually making that journey)? I was one of the people who was sorry EA didn't end up making SimVille all those years ago, and would have been happy with a small town simulator that had one-for-one simulation as a tradeoff in size.
 
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RodyMetal

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Do you have any idea what the maximum number of citizens could be that it would be realistic to genuinely simulate making every journey they have to make in theory (eg all leaving for work at the same time and actually making that journey)? I was one of the people who was sorry EA didn't end up making SimVille all those years ago, and would have been happy with a small town simulator that had one-for-one simulation as a tradeoff in size.

Well, maybe you can try a game called Banished then :)
 

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well, i suppose thats a compromise until those mega-cored computers will be in every house to process lives of all millions of our working slaves in these games. heh

still its somehow itchy.
i just want more obvious complaints when some factory cannot recieve at least FEW workers to make it there! not that vague statistical model tax penalty, but just a whiny message from those fools cannot swim over river to thier jorbs )
 

Co_Karoliina

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In Skylines citizens would not leave for work at the same time. Right now they have locations they are likely to visit, which differ per age group. Young adults with jobs (non-students) and adults are very likely to visit their workplace, seniors prefer parks and other leisure locations, children and teens go to school and all ages go shopping. If the citizens reach their destinations, the city runs better and makes more money, but it is not catastrophic if they do not reach the places, so players have the time to make fixes and can play even if they are not very skilled with traffic management.

To keep the system requirements reasonable, the game simulates about 65k of citizens moving around the city at the same time. So that size of cities would be possible to simulate with actual agents. But since we had the aim of one million citizens from the start, we had to be creative and combine systems to help the cities have life, but not so much that they get congested with cars and citizens and make your computer explode in a fiery ball.
 

unmerged(445458)

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In Skylines citizens would not leave for work at the same time. Right now they have locations they are likely to visit, which differ per age group. Young adults with jobs (non-students) and adults are very likely to visit their workplace, seniors prefer parks and other leisure locations, children and teens go to school and all ages go shopping. If the citizens reach their destinations, the city runs better and makes more money, but it is not catastrophic if they do not reach the places, so players have the time to make fixes and can play even if they are not very skilled with traffic management.

To keep the system requirements reasonable, the game simulates about 65k of citizens moving around the city at the same time. So that size of cities would be possible to simulate with actual agents. But since we had the aim of one million citizens from the start, we had to be creative and combine systems to help the cities have life, but not so much that they get congested with cars and citizens and make your computer explode in a fiery ball.

Is there actually any benefit to citizens reaching their destinations if that destination is their workplace? If there is, you should make it clear what that is, because people are making it sound like there is no benefit. I understand that some aspects of the city are in fact simulated, but the concern is that workers not getting to work has no consequences.
 

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In Skylines citizens would not leave for work at the same time. Right now they have locations they are likely to visit, which differ per age group. Young adults with jobs (non-students) and adults are very likely to visit their workplace, seniors prefer parks and other leisure locations, children and teens go to school and all ages go shopping. If the citizens reach their destinations, the city runs better and makes more money, but it is not catastrophic if they do not reach the places, so players have the time to make fixes and can play even if they are not very skilled with traffic management.
then it simply should be hardcore mode(mod) for real traffic masters with catastrophic consequences for poor road planning
 

Inge Jones

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Well, maybe you can try a game called Banished then :)

One of my favorite games - I have played it for many many hours! However, it is limited in scope - you can never get beyond kind of medieval times with it, no vehicles, no controlled road junctions. And just like with Skylines, they have no daily routine simulated. But they do have persistence in their family homes, and have to travel to and actually perform jobs, that I do appreciate.
 

Co_Karoliina

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Some one was also asking about the crime rate. The crime rate is affected not only by police, but also by citizen happiness. Basically the happier citizens are, the less likely they are to turn to crime. So when you try to get a high crime rate, turn off many services to lower land value and lessen available services, so that citizens will be miserable.

Getting citizens to the workplaces offers a small efficiency boost to the workplaces, but not much, because the player cannot affect the fact that not all citizens are able to go to the workplaces and it would feel unfair to punish them for that.

PS. I too love Banished!
 

bocbocboc

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Is there any info to see how much the public transport lines are used? For example how i can figure out if i have too many or too few buses on the roads for serving the citizens?
 

Epicity

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Lets see if I can shed some light to this issue!

All workers do not need to get to work. This would simply need too much processing power if all 1 million citizens left to work at the same time. The worker numbers shown in factory information windows are the employees assigned for that building, the ones who can visit it as a work location. Not all of the workers will visit the building at the same time, some might not ever visit it, but they are the ones marked to work in the building. Employees don't need to get to work, but there need to be enough people in the city to assign to each workplace.

If citizens get stuck in traffic they will return to their starting point and abandon the traveling. This mechanic prevents city-wide gridlocks from happening, because when the traffic got that bad, it was very hard for players to see where the actual problem was because the traffic info view showed all roads as congested. Now the traffic jam will stay, but not expand uncontrollably, so it can be found and dealt with. Traffic jams do affect the city, because citizens can't travel to shopping locations, tourists can't travel to shopping locations, goods don't ship to local businesses and raw materials don't reach the industry.

Industry needs connections to receive raw materials and ship goods to outside locations or businesses in the city. For the most tax revenue, you should produce raw materials locally, have industry make them into goods and have local shops sell them. The shared save (Worker bug) has a city that does not even cover the upkeep of the roads with the industry taxes because they do not ship to local commercial areas. All buildings spawn with a small buffer of the items they need (goods for commercial, raw materials for industry) and will only require a shipment once the buffer gets low. In the save's very small city the buffer lasts quite a long time, but if you let the save roll on top speed for about 15 minutes, the buffer empties and commercial starts to need more goods. In a larger city, the buffer is gone fast and thus buildings react to poor connections faster.

So basically goods and raw materials work as agents, but citizens are a combination of agent and statistical model. A good road network makes the city produce more tax revenue, and having public transportation to take citizens to work will benefit the player by generating ticket income. Tourists only spend money in the city if they can reach commercial areas.

The city is quite slow to react to changes, but this was a choice made for stability so you can't accidentally destroy your city by a few poor choices. There's always time to react and fix things.

What happens if the industrial ship to commerical and never returns? As in a one way street into commercial.
 

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Some one was also asking about the crime rate. The crime rate is affected not only by police, but also by citizen happiness. Basically the happier citizens are, the less likely they are to turn to crime. So when you try to get a high crime rate, turn off many services to lower land value and lessen available services, so that citizens will be miserable.

Getting citizens to the workplaces offers a small efficiency boost to the workplaces, but not much, because the player cannot affect the fact that not all citizens are able to go to the workplaces and it would feel unfair to punish them for that.

PS. I too love Banished!

You talked about happiness. Perhaps that would be a way to "punish" the player for clogging up his or her streets without the need of simulating all Cims going to work. Right now, when the Cim gets stuck in traffic or at a bus stop it teleports home an gets "confused". How about reducing its happiness everytime it gets confused. Perhaps there would be the need for additional information of the reasons for its unhappiness, like another tab in the Cim's info panel with a list of reasons for happiness and/or unhapiness.

That way the player would need to provide his city with a working road network otherwise the happiness of his Cims will go down until they move out. But in the other hand the system remains that prevents total traffic disasters.
 

Nashetovich

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We're noticing that no workers need to go to work at all. So sectioned off residential and industry would work as normal not even needing a simulation.
Co_Karoliina said, as I got it, freshly builded factories have some reserved resources on wich they can work some time.

It is kinda exploitable as you can destroy old building and get new one with resources, so you don't need road connected. Must be same for workforce, probably.
 

Inge Jones

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Getting citizens to the workplaces offers a small efficiency boost to the workplaces, but not much, because the player cannot affect the fact that not all citizens are able to go to the workplaces and it would feel unfair to punish them for that.

Does the game eventually get round to trying to send all the workers to work, over a period of many days, just not all at the same time? If so, the effect we are asking for could be achieved by simply programming it so that each time an individual Cim couldn't reach their job, that individual Cim loses that job, and should only be replaced by one that the particular workplace can calculate a route to, or vice versa. Over a time, that will then have the effect of making many Cims jobless, and many workplaces lacking in workers, which is the realism I think most of us seem to be asking for.
 

Co_Karoliina

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Epicity, they would not have trucks to ship any more stuff. The trucks need to return to their home buildings, just like in real life.

PForsberg, a happiness effect might work for this, I'll look into it! Keeping the game in balance is quite tricky since there are so many systems that affect each other, so we need to test things carefully before releasing any fixes. The work place traveling might be changed to have a happiness effect, but I can't promise anything yet and it will take some time. Thanks for the great suggestion!

Inge, I'm afraid that might be too much for the pathfinding, because if cims would continually lose jobs, the new employees would then start looking for a route and the old workers would look for routes to new workplaces. It sounds like it could set in motion a chain reaction. But it's still a nice idea, it would work very well in smaller cities :)
 

Epicity

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Co_Karoliina said, as I got it, freshly builded factories have some reserved resources on wich they can work some time.

It is kinda exploitable as you can destroy old building and get new one with resources, so you don't need road connected. Must be same for workforce, probably.

It's not about resources. Resources must need roads connecting. Workers do not which is where our problem is.

As I said somewhere: No roads to resources = fail, No roads to workers = success. There should be a check to see if workers are connected at all which there isn't.

I like the scaled back simulation, but that's not really the issue.
 
Aug 22, 2009
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Thanks for the feedback Karoliina!

If agents were simulated but not individually rendered, would that effect CPU capacity? I.E real simulation but fake rendering like SC4.

If agents are to be individually rendered they need to move in realistic speed to make sense. With realistic I mean for them in relation to their game speed. Thats what killed SC2013, cars moved waaaay to slow to make any sense = eternal gridlock.

What's the point of real simulation (agents) if CPU limitations forces you to make the agents behave in a unrealistic fashion? Why not just make SC4 with better graphics?
 
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