I'm not sure what you exactly mean by marginalization of goverments and some ethics, but there are always different factions and opposition irl, no matter what goverment type or ethics you have.
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I'm not sure what you exactly mean by marginalization of goverments and some ethics, but there are always different factions and opposition irl, no matter what goverment type or ethics you have.
Show me those different (key world - different) factions in North Korea, China, Vietnam, and old CCCP (present Russia in some ways).
And, if we stay in term "In Real Life", then I, as a Leader of Scienc-base goverment (or oppose Theocracy), I should have tool to deal with some brain-damaged ppl who see / belive in god (or burn heretic who say that he do not belive). Especially, if on start I get F. version of ethic, and I root out all superstitions from start.
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But how does that marginalize goverments and ethics? You can still deal with those heretics you talked about, by supressing the appropriate faction, and one can very well believe that some burning at the stakes was included to set an example. As factions start to play even bigger part in 1.5, F. Authoritarian's strenght of suppressing factions becomes even more powerful and unique ability. North Korea could be viewed as having maxed out the Domination tradition tree and perfected the art of supressing factions, which is now a valid playstyle. It didn't start without opposing factions, but it eventually was able to supress them to oblivion - or near enough, as there are still tons of people in work camps from opposing the goverment or people fleeing the country.
And talking about the good ol' CCCP, apparently quite many did oppose it internally, as we can tell by the number of countries that rushed to seperate themselves from it, events like Warsaw Uprising and the huge amount of effort and money put to suppressing its population. Tiananmen protests is a good example of supressing these very real factions and masses of people from China.
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You are escaping from whot I said...
"Show me those different (key world - different) factions in North Korea, China, Vietnam, and old CCCP (present Russia in some ways)."
No, I have only one option. To "supress it" - downgrade it support, by use of influence, for some time! So in my empire, there are still those ppl, who I MUST accept them and their insanity, with no tool to deal with them. If devs will say something about some research (re-education / indoctrination), some new special building or re-work of old buildngs, I may be much calmer, but... From whot I see, this new, "all have factions" idea and new ethic system, are ... well, in simple words, I'am very "sceptic" about it...
1 - If you see whot this "domination" tradition give, then I will be more than happy, to see it now, and by that, you will vanish my fears.
2 - And whot about others? Does Tech-utopia must have domination tradition to still be "sane"?
And...
That's my point! Gather everyone and deal with them, so no one else have stiupid idea - Permament Faction Destruction.
On end...
Quick history lession - Poland was never a part of CCCP. In term of stellaris (not existing) politic, it was like ... Vasal / Protectorat, who have pupet gov, and ppl who have very sick ED, and anexing it to CCCP, will be very bad idea... So we stay years as a pupet-state.
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My bad, that was mix up from my end. That was supposed to be the Hungarian Revolution of '56, but even then that would count as a vassal/protectorat. But about me showing different factions, I think I gave you plenty of cases (Soviets needing to continuously suppress its people, Tiananmen, old Soviet states fleeing the Union as soon as given the chance, people fleeing NK) that even in F. Authoritarian dictatorship you can't submit everyone to like what you do. People don't have to officially list into a party to count as a member of a disagreeing faction.
That is true, you can't just kill everyone who agrees with you, because as soon as you start doing that, people will declare their agreement with you (if your suppression is succesful). That doesn't change their mind however, only how they officially tell you. Stalin did try to kill everyone who disagreed with him, but even he can't read thoughts. Neither can you in Stellaris. A simple 'purge everyone' button would be boring, as it would just negate all need to ever care about factions, which would be unbalanced and unrealistic. You still need your "secret" police.
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Please explain how you got to that wierd idea.
You know that executions in North Korea are usually done via Anti-Air weaponry aginst on surface targets?
How do we know? Becuase they keep executing leaders of subfactions. Oh look, there are subfactions to fight off via executions right now!
USSR/CCCP:
A cursory glance revealse the following distinct era's in the USSR:
Lenin era
Post Lenin/Pre-Stalin era
Stalin era
Khrushchev era.
Brezhnev era.
Ghorbatchev era.
And that Putins Russia and Erdogans Turkey are more Authoritarian should be damn obvious.
Pretty sure somebody who has equal knowledge could give you the same for China and Vietnam.
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Sorry, clicked 'post reply' too early..
I suggest you read the 'Unity and Traditions' dev diary again about the Domination tech tree. And what about the Tech-Utopia? Same as in any authoritarian regime. And I say authoritarian, because if we would be democratic Tech-Utopia, why would the people elect scientist to lead them if they themselves aren't materialistic? In democratic Tech-Utopia there are no significant religious groups, as the nation wouldn't have ended up as a Tech-Utopia in the first place.
And if you really really want to purge everyone, you can just mod that in. Might break the faction system on some ethics and goverments, which wouldn't need to worry about factions at all anyone. I'd still wait for more info and until the patch comes out to see how it plays in reality.
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I suggest you read the 'Unity and Traditions' dev diary again about the Domination tech tree. And what about the Tech-Utopia? Same as in any authoritarian regime. And I say authoritarian, because if we would be democratic Tech-Utopia, why would the people elect scientist to lead them if they themselves aren't materialistic? In democratic Tech-Utopia there are no significant religious groups, as the nation wouldn't have ended up as a Tech-Utopia in the first place.
And if you really really want to purge everyone, you can just mod that in. Might break the faction system on some ethics and goverments, which wouldn't need to worry about factions at all anyone. I'd still wait for more info and until the patch comes out to see how it plays in reality.
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Wiz was once asked regarding "why can we no longer purge". Indeed somebody mentioned oppoosition having been put into KZ as under the Nazi's. His answer was:
"Puriging is the equivalent of Nazi germany killing the entire population of Bavaria, not a few hundred oppositionals being put into prision."
Supression is that "putting oppositionals into prision"/removing people from office.
Like Erdogan is just doing with the Gulen Movement. Despite Erdogans movement (AKP) having been allied with Gulen earlier.
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Exactly. And suppressing, as you described with Erdogan and the Gulen Movement, is far more believable than killing a whole state's population just because 20% of the population thinks you're wrong.
This isn't 40K where you exterminatus a whole planet because someone said "Horus wasn't so bad" and wasn't instantly maimed to death. And even that didn't root out heresy.
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That's why I ask for other things that do not use influence (like here research / buildings) and / or purge in some topics - everytime I only see, as my answer, silence, or "Respectfully Disagree". I want something special - gov unique action. Because now, everything is throw in one basket:
Re-education - Suppress faction
Psycho-terapy - Suppress faction
Medytation about philosophy - Suppress faction
And so on...
It not say a thing about supressing faction other than "Domination: Focuses on maintaining control over your population and subjects", and whot give adopting / finishing it. So until there is no info about all "icons" and whot hide behind them, we can only speculate.
Of course it will be boring - it is now boring (tested). Unbalanced and unrealistic? Maybe - but more like alien-like mentality.
Wierd? Let's see...
Paradox Logick:
Everyone end up with eight (more ore less) brain-damage factions, base on eight ethic, and no mater whot is your gov, and / or gov ethic. No one can escape from it, if (speculation) don't get Domination or Harmony tradition. No diversity (again!), no gov-unique decision. Nothin. Your gov is only +X to some stats.
My Logick:
Let's take my Tech-utopia ~ Colective + F. Materialist ~ in my concept, F. version is always on top, and type of factions is from them.
After a time, I colonize planet, do something, research something and ... pop-up - faction created. Click on it and I see... Biologist who wish I concentrate more on this topic, find a planet with alien fauna/ flora to study and / or give them grants. Next one show technician, who are interest in minerals / energy to study (maybe event to give them some or decision from faction menu), construction of safe settlement, and "material research". And so on, and so forth...
More example!
Spiritualist - If one god, then every faction is base on specific aspect of god. If many gods, then factions are base on them.
Militarist - By specific weapon, idea of war, expanding defence (build stations and / or research and expand ship hull by adding armor), and so on.
Gov-specific faction and ways to deal with them. That whot I want. So... Wierd, isn't it? Or, mabe not?
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What does it mater if you got 8 Factions, if only 1-3 have enough members to actually be remotely important?
And one of them is your Loyalist Faction (by nature of you doing exactly what they love). So you have maybe 2 factions you have issues with. The rest is just kind of unimportant.
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What you're looking for are Happiness boosters and Ethics Divergence reducers. Both of which are usually a focus of certain ethos (and by extension governments).
As far as I'm aware, Factions will not be just a representative of a given Ethic- they'll be aligned with certain Ethics, but it's not "This is the Pacifist Faction, the Materialist Faction, etc...".
Basically you're pitching a hissy fit over a feature we know very little about. Wait until it comes out, then provide constructive feedback and criticism if the feature underperforms.
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Then why we have any factions in a first place? And more of this - they will be important. Why? Because some player will have huge empires (somethimes full of different aliens), with lot's of different ethics. And by whot we know, some techs, traditions and actions, will effect in ethic change (sometimes permament). Whot then? To "2 factions you have issues with" we will add +1, and then again, and again ... until you take Domination or Harmony tradition. And maybe after the problem remain. We don't know.
Basically, you are doing the same. You only speculate.
"Hissy fit" over a feature we know very little about - Only a healty, sceptic view on the "things" they give us.
We have lack on knowledge? Yes. Why? Because they give as only that much. Then why we talk about it? Because We Can! We can exchange our positive / negative experience with whot we see and hear. We can discus about "whot if" and "whot for". We can think about aspects of "how it may look". And you know why everyone in every topic doing this? Because some devs may watching, and after read some arguments, theories and suggestions, they may implant, change or discover something new in this game. Every word we write here, may, or may not, add something to the game.
That's why I write - To give some of my, "little sceptic point of view", which, in my opinions, this forum lack.
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Will changing ethics forcibly change our empire's name/adjectives/ship prefix like changing governments does?
I just hope outside events like crises and the behavior of neighboring empires can affect faction popularity. Aliens enslaving your species on their worlds? Xenophobia on the rise. AI rebellion 2 sectors over? You become the imperium of mankind.
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Question for @Wiz: however ethics are downgraded by accepting a new ethic, I see faction demands include changing some policies, but what about ethics-specific techs or buildings? Will they remain in place, or will they be locked off from use if you are no longer of an ethical alignment to research or build them?
That seems to be clearly planned. Form the Dev Diary:
"Each ethic now has an attraction value for each pop in your empire depending on both the empire's situation and their own situation. For example, enslaved pops tend to become more egalitarian, while pops living around non-enslaved aliens become more xenophilic (and pops living around enslaved aliens more xenophobic). Conversely, fighting a lot of wars will increase the attraction for militarism across your entire empire, while an alien empire purging pops of a particular species will massively increase the attraction for xenophobic for the species being purged."
However the exact extent seems unclear.
I would not only asume they are locked out. But that they will be actively removed.
The current code for switching Capitol includes scrapping the Empire Capitol Complex and every building dependant on it. If I would write code to swap ethoses and affect buildings while doing so, that would be exactly the situation in wich I would test this rather important piece of code
