Wizard Kings and their slipping sanity

[Seivarden]

From a lore perspective, wizard kings do not have a particularly firm grasp on their sanity. This is already somewhat referenced in game via random events, but perhaps it can be taken further.

The game called elemental had a concept (the practical execution of the concept is another discussion) where an AI leader had a personality trait “insane” which gave them a chance to perform random action in diplomacy with the player and other AI.

In AOW making completely random decisions might be too chaotic, besides AI already doesn’t always make the most optimized and reasonable decisions (at least it didn’t in the previous games), but I think it might be a cool idea to have the ai wizard king leaders have a chance to get for example random relationship modifier in positive or negative direction due to their slipping sanity.

While the human player wizard kings can get random events where their slipping sanity compels them to do something somewhat irrational. For example, the wizard king is getting paranoid and wants to immediately construct some kind of defensive fortification in the capital. The capital loses some production, but gains some bonus or building of a player’s choice. Or perhaps the player has to spend some kind of resource in exchange for another resource.

I don’t know, I just thought it is a cool concept from the role-playing perspective. What do you think?

 

[Newbee53]

While the human player wizard kings can get random events where their slipping sanity compels them to do something somewhat irrational. For example, the wizard king is getting paranoid and wants to immediately construct some kind of defensive fortification in the capital. The capital loses some production, but gains some bonus or building of a player’s choice. Or perhaps the player has to spend some kind of resource in exchange for another resource.

No. Don't take control from me. I don't want to deal with 'my character going insane.' If I did, I'd play a game with the psychological aspects front and center.

 

[BlaneckW]

Wizard king might imply someone from an old age, or otherwise a wizard conqueror from another plane.
Lore wise, there is no reason there cannot also be new wizard kings - at least as far as past lore goes.

I am not aware of any implication that the player wizard king spent a thousand years in the void or whatever.
Only those that Merlin locked away.

Julia and Merlin would both be considered wizard kings as far as I know.
I am not sure the source of this confusion that every wizard king is of devious, insane-tending nature, unless that has explicitly been stated.

I am admittedly not much for watching videos, but I am assuming you did not play previous games.

 

[Newbee53]

Wizard king might imply someone from an old age, or otherwise a wizard conqueror from another plane.
Lore wise, there is no reason there cannot also be new wizard kings - at least as far as past lore goes.

I am not aware of any implication that the player wizard king spent a thousand years in the void or whatever.
Only those that Merlin locked away.

Julia and Merlin would both be considered wizard kings as far as I know.
I am not sure the source of this confusion that every wizard king is of devious, insane-tending nature, unless that has explicitly been stated.

I am admittedly not much for watching videos, but I am assuming you did not play previous games.

It goes beyond that; given that made mage heaven and the void appear to be a physical place, based on all the trailers anyway, one can argue that the new wizard kings are the offspring of those locked away.

From a lore perspective, wizard kings do not have a particularly firm grasp on their sanity. This is already somewhat referenced in game via random events, but perhaps it can be taken further.

A second post because thoughts accord and BLaneckW gave me an excuse.


Nothing says the wizard kings are any older than 'natural' life spans. And no reason to believe that age caused insanity. After all, these kings weren't alone and isolated, but surrounded by other wizard kings, who are all niegh immortal. The normal idea of immortality driving people insane doesn't work here, because they aren't watching friends and family disappear into the past.

At worst they got bored. But we don't know that is true either. Maybe they could watch other worlds as the launch trailer suggests. Maybe their brains can't story infinite information and they forgot past things they'd done? So they can play their first game of chess a second time.

Then we are assuming that during the 'lock down' time passed the same, or the wizard kings didn't put themselves in stasis in order to avoid the loss of sanity.

So much has been left open for the player to choose. If you want to make a wizard king that is going insane, you can do that with your choices. You can even roll a dice, or use a random number generator, to determine if you pick a choice opposite your normal one. Though I'd suggest being more deliberate about it so that the choices are more thematic. Most fictional versions of insanity follow a general theme after all.

 

[Seivarden]

Wizard king might imply someone from an old age, or otherwise a wizard conqueror from another plane.
Lore wise, there is no reason there cannot also be new wizard kings - at least as far as past lore goes.

I am not aware of any implication that the player wizard king spent a thousand years in the void or whatever.
Only those that Merlin locked away.

Julia and Merlin would both be considered wizard kings as far as I know.
I am not sure the source of this confusion that every wizard king is of devious, insane-tending nature, unless that has explicitly been stated.

I am admittedly not much for watching videos, but I am assuming you did not play previous games.

i have played the previous games, but i am talking about AOW4 specifically and what we have seen so far. And what we have seen so far are greetings from neutral cities and occasionally AI players and random events affecting wizard king players, which rather certainly imply that each and every wizard king has spend a thousand years in the void or whatever (and have left some of their sanity there). From the top of my head potatomcwhiskey stream 2nd half had those. And the official sieges showcase stream, towards the end, if you want to look at what i am talking about for yourself. And i am pretty sure the developers have said that wizard kings are specifically those returning from the void as opposed to just powerful old mages.

 

[Goemoe]

No matter how much lore would justify insane Wizard Kings, the second the game mechanic strips the player of some of their controll over the game, the most played ruler type would be Champion. People just don't like loosing control, especially in games. So clear no to random results in diplomatics.

 

[Seivarden]

Here, i found the specific greetings and random events i was referencing. As you can see, the game rather clearly states that the wizard kings were locked and tormented in the void for centuaries and did not exactly came out the other side unscathed. I just think there are ways to lean into this idea further and suggesting the mechanical ways of doing so.
(edit: the quality is terrible, let me see if i can do something about that)

 

[Daerhaug]

I like the already implemented version to represent the centuries of isolation.
Giving a little bonus might compell players to change course, but don't hinder already pursued goals.

 

[Newbee53]

As you can see, the game rather clearly states that the wizard kings were locked and tormented in the void for centuaries and did not exactly came out the other side unscathed

That seems to contradict the ability to create good wizard kings and 'insanity' being linked to the chaos affinity, which is the only affinity clearly associated with an alignment. Evil. I wonder if the lore changed after they said that, and there are still remints in the game lore.

I like the already implemented version to represent the centuries of isolation.
Giving a little bonus might compell players to change course, but don't hinder already pursued goals.

But they aren't isolated. We know mage heaven is in the void, especially that screen shot from the newest dev diary where you can 'guide them to mage heaven.' And you have to get to mage heaven to enter a new world. So maybe some of the ancient wizard kings got lost longer before finding mage heaven, and thus went nutty. But clearly not all of them.

I'll be extremely disappointed if all the wizard kings are depicted as insane. That will really reduce my willingness to make wizard king characters. Hopefully that isn't explicitly in the lore, and you can get lore bits that show a lack of insanity.

 

[BlaneckW]

Nothing says the wizard kings are any older than 'natural' life spans.

Unless stated otherwise, figures like Yaka are indeed ancient, from the era of AoW1 or at least AoW2.

We know mage heaven is in the void, especially that screen shot from the newest dev diary where you can 'guide them to mage heaven.'

Mage haven can be in an astral plane, but unless you have a reference, the void is literally a void as far as I know. Merlin was trapped there in AoW2 SM.

AoW2 wizards go there when you kill them, and it was never implied to me they are wandering around the multiverse. But hey, while I like lore, I admit I don't particularly like videos unless someone can direct me.

 

[BlaneckW]

And i am pretty sure the developers have said that wizard kings are specifically those returning from the void as opposed to just powerful old mages.

That would be interesting, as that contradicts old lore as far as I know. I can wink and nod at such narrative conveniences for those who haven't played past games, but as far as I know Julia and Merlin were also wizard kings, and were not in the void for a thousand years. They may have been less powerful in the AoW3 era, I don't know why that would still be the case.

At least in AOW2, wizard king is a stature that can be acquired by those of ability beyond the ken of heroes, it is not an exclusive group, it refers merely to those extraordinary persons or beings that have acquired it, and it is not exclusively linked with evil or madness. it seemed implied to me that there were also wizard kings from other worlds, whether in Aow2 SM or AOW4.

If you have a category of "Champion coming up from the people" versus "Wizard king from the multiverse", this was easily enough interpreted by me to mean, that most wizards would indeed be ancient, either from the old age, or from planes that had been magical while Athla was less for a time, and most "champions" would indeed be new and less skilled at magic. It does not imply to me that there cannot be new wizard kings. There has always been new wizard kings, just perhaps not in the AoW3 era on Athla where magic had been gated off and more faded.

 

[Kitschy]

Although I agree that at least some Wizard Kings were complete maniacs even before the Astral Void thing, mechanically taking away player choice is not the best of ideas.

That seems to contradict the ability to create good wizard kings and 'insanity' being linked to the chaos affinity, which is the only affinity clearly associated with an alignment. Evil. I wonder if the lore changed after they said that, and there are still remints in the game lore.

No it doesn't, it just says that spending time in the Void is exceptionally mentally taxing. You can still be good (or trying to be) Wizard King, even if being in the Void was hell of a ride that didn't leave you unscathed.

 

[Newbee53]

Nothing says the wizard kings are any older than 'natural' life spans.

Gen Z or whatever must be more autistic than me in stating assumptions as fact. This is not the case. Unless stated otherwise, figures like Yaka are indeed ancient, from the era of AoW1 or at least AoW2.

Just because they lived in those ancient times means they experienced the however many years it’s been sense then. Self-made stasis or time moving at different rates are fully possible. Doesn't really matter.

I was, however, a bit inaccurate. I meant: Nothing said that the custom wizard kings we make have to be any older than a 'normal' life span. The cannon characters are whatever age they need to be.

We know mage heaven is in the void, especially that screen shot from the newest dev diary where you can 'guide them to mage heaven.'

Mage haven can be in an astral plane, but unless you have a reference, the void is literally a void as far as I know. Merlin was trapped there in AoW2 SM.

AoW2 wizards go there when you kill them, and it was never implied to me they are wandering around the multiverse. But hey, while I like lore, I admit I don't particularly like videos unless someone can direct me.

We know mage haven is where you launch your invasions from, as explained here. This makes it the only place you can enter other worlds from, as far as we know. Following on, this means that those first wizards to step through portals after it became possible again had to be here to start with.

Spoiler: Mage Haven in the Void

This picture shows that someone just banished to the void can find mage heaven. Ether it was built, or simply exists in the void. Which makes me wonder why all wizard kings are 'haunted by their time in the void.' At least a few of them had to be able to find the mage heaven before the void became a problem.

No it doesn't, it just says that spending time in the Void is exceptionally mentally taxing. You can still be good (or trying to be) Wizard King, even if being in the Void was hell of a ride that didn't leave you unscathed.

Eh, still might not be worth it. 'Went through hell in past, past constantly haunts them,' is the most overused backstory currently. I guess if the lore doesn't push the point to hard it wouldn't be all that bad, if its subtle enough I can ignore it then, maybe. But at the same time, it just a boring backstory and it will be impossible to overlook it.

I'd be much more interested in wizard kings who spent the time watching other realms like reality TV, arguing ethics, or almost anything else. But 'scarred from my past' has been over done a lot recently. Hell, it would be a lot more interesting if the old characters had children while waiting for the prison to be breached and some of those children were just interested in the worlds outside.

I guess my initial reaction was heavily colored by the disappointment in the overused trope. Hopefully the writing will be open enough to allow more interesting stories.

 

[stigmund77]

This would be a cool new optional trait, possibly giving big buffs in exchange for random options being selected in diplomacy and events.

 

[Orphalesion]

At the very least in Age of Wonders 2/SM Arctica and Karissa are referred to as "primordial beings" in relation to Athla. Really all the Wizards of the Circle of Evermore are presented as being ancient, so old that they have been sitting on Evermore for so long that the people of Athla, even the immortal Elves, have all but forgotten about them by the time of AoW2. Some, like Yaka are said to be worshipped as gods by civilizations (plural) and some seem capable of creating their own species of followers.
Confusingly some seem to be members of the races they lead (Serena, Fangir and Marinus seem to actually be an Elf, Dwarf and Halfling, and Fangir even retired from being a Wizard for a while in SM) While others are presented as more general humanoids, capable of taking multiple forms.

If we assume that being a Wizard is just how Age of Wodners 2 and SM simulated godirs then we also saw the ascension of several characters (wizards and champions) to Godirhood in AoW 2 and SM; Julia, Meandor and Merlin in AoW2. Perses, Simon, Ke-Nan, Phobius, Vorsar and a whole slew others who all came from the ranks of their people.

I can't remember anything in the lore that said Wizards "don't have a firm grasp on reality". Yes the writing was quite humorous in parts, but the only two wizards I remember being particularly loony were Nimue (who is often singled out for being particularly unstable) and Vorsar (who might be a champion under the new system and only went insane after the Shadow Demons started gnawing on his soul)

 

[NEHZ]

When the developers mentioned that some wizard kings went crazy, it was specifically about them being locked away in the void, not due to their age*. It was in one of the earlier dev streams were they showed off and explained the unit that used to be a wizard king. We're not talking about them being able to freely move through the astral sea at that time. This is not in regard to any godir you make, unless you deliberatly make that part of your backstory.
If you want to know for sure, you should try and find that video for the exact wording.
*and yes the wizard kings of the circle lived a long time on Athla, without going insane (due to age)

 

[Big J Money]

If you're feeling confident, you could always make a mod / story-realm with events to represent the player character's insanity, and see what people think.

 

[aono]

That seems to contradict the ability to create good wizard kings and 'insanity' being linked to the chaos affinity, which is the only affinity clearly associated with an alignment.

Actually, Scions of Evil is Shadow affinity social trait, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[aerothgow]

Sounds like a mod in the making

 

[Newbee53]

The way you get 'evil' alignment is to destroy cities, hunt down independents, and displace local populations. The affinity uniquely suited to do all that is chaos. If you are looking for an evil build, chaos tomes will give you the highest mechanical advantages. Especially the empire skills, which are almost universally used for nothing but war.

That is what I mean. Chaos affinity choices push you more towards evil actions in general than any other affinity. Also, 2 of 3 default chaos traits are evil aligned.