Wiz, the Portugal-India Core event is ridiculous

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Will Lucky

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Claiming that westernization is materially more immersion killing than coalition mechanics, war score, or even the war leader concept is bogus, and vexing because you're essentially arguing against a mechanic that is put in place to make disadvantaged positions more competitive (while still markedly inferior overall) as the major source of immersion killing. I don't know your stance on other mechanics of course, but westernization in this capacity shouldn't be altered without also altering the game systems that surround it.

No No I agree that history can be broken, but to see it every single game is immersion breaking in terms of Europe not being dominant. ROTW didn't start to advance quickly until the Vicky 2 period, and the game should reflect that by being a higher possibility of Europe being dominant most times. Yes, say 1 times out of 5 a ROTW nation should break the mold. But it still falls down to the technology mechanic itself, it needs to be overhauled entirely in my opinion, it needs to change to suit ROTW better.

And yes I have strong opinions on those problems but I personally consider this issue to be on par with them.

And yes this event could easily be turned into some sort of decision where India gets a free claim on Goa if certain things are in place but thats it.

In 1444 Europe was well positioned to become the technological leaders and indeed dominate the world. But it was by no means inevitable. European dominance both in technological and other aspects occurred primarily as a result of events and decision made during the EUIV time period (along with a large helping of luck). For Europe to always end up dominant, regardless of what happens (barring direct player involvement), and with no real effort, is stupid.

Although I do agree - India shouldn't "westernise" by 1600. Because by 1600 there was very little about "the West" that India would've aspired to. Copying them at that time wouldn't have been "advancing". It was only well into the 17th century that European dominance came into being.

See above for my answer.
 
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Aard Vark

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Europe is dominant. Every. Single. Game. Even the Ottomans rarely achieve anything noteworthy west of the Balkans. Right now the RotW is just a giant pinata. Only the Euro AI's lack of ambition prevents it from landing doom stacks everywhere and taking all the candy.
 
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EMT0

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In 1444 Europe was well positioned to become the technological leaders and indeed dominate the world. But it was by no means inevitable. European dominance both in technological and other aspects occurred primarily as a result of events and decision made during the EUIV time period (along with a large helping of luck). For Europe to always end up dominant, regardless of what happens (barring direct player involvement), and with no real effort, is stupid.

Although I do agree - India shouldn't "westernise" by 1600. Because by 1600 there was very little about "the West" that India would've aspired to. Copying them at that time wouldn't have been "advancing". It was only well into the 17th century that European dominance came into being.

In 1444 Europe was destined to become the Ottoman Empire's chew toy.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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No No I agree that history can be broken, but to see it every single game is immersion breaking in terms of Europe not being dominant. ROTW didn't start to advance quickly until the Vicky 2 period, and the game should reflect that by being a higher possibility of Europe being dominant most times. Yes, say 1 times out of 5 a ROTW nation should break the mold. But it still falls down to the technology mechanic itself, it needs to be overhauled entirely in my opinion, it needs to change to suit ROTW better.

And yes I have strong opinions on those problems but I personally consider this issue to be on par with them.

And yes this event could easily be turned into some sort of decision where India gets a free claim on Goa if certain things are in place but thats it.



See above for my answer.

Europe's lack of dominance in AI hands is not a matter of tech group at all though. The hat in India means nothing, the challenge is even getting the AI to attack there, and when it does take land, to actually ship troops to deal with the rebels.

Even in the new world, nations often survive just because the Europeans just...leave them alone, for 150 years.
 

PhroX

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No No I agree that history can be broken, but to see it every single game is immersion breaking in terms of Europe not being dominant. ROTW didn't start to advance quickly until the Vicky 2 period, and the game should reflect that by being a higher possibility of Europe being dominant most times. Yes, say 1 times out of 5 a ROTW nation should break the mold. But it still falls down to the technology mechanic itself, it needs to be overhauled entirely in my opinion, it needs to change to suit ROTW better.

And yes I have strong opinions on those problems but I personally consider this issue to be on par with them.

And yes this event could easily be turned into some sort of decision where India gets a free claim on Goa if certain things are in place but thats it.



See above for my answer.

While I definitely agree that the tech system needs an overhaul, it should not be "1 times out of 5 a ROTW nation should break the mold". It should be "1 out of 5 times Europe remains a backwater, left lagging behind large parts of the ROTW" even without player interference.
 
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diceyy

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Historically Portugal got Goa - and other ports in Asia - during first years of 16th century. By 1520s Iberians had 'eu4 provinces' in Swahilli, Oman, India, Kongo, Malacca, Philippines, Indonesia and not sure when but in 16th century in Macau. Thus, if a bit of this historical reality was to be implemented, most of Orient should have eu4 ability to westernize anyway and I see no problem. I would love to see rapidly appearing European trade companies here.

What I would do is some way of limiting westernization as currently it is a bit too easy and simple - by 1821 half of the world or majority of it are westernized, irl that happened only to some NA tribes and partially to Japan and Siam. Maybe brute date restriction 'cannot westernize before 1600' or 'you need to complete administrative, innovative or economic group to westernize, or 'you need good relations with country you westernize from', or 'westernization brings you to higher tech group but not instantly to western' so:
eastern, muslim, ottoman -> insta western
indian, chinese -> equivalent of eastern, +20%
horde, american, subsaharan -> equivalent of muslim, +40%

Anyway, I hate name - calling Paradox devs 'I demand you to do that' as I find that rude.

Back to the eu3 mechanic in other words.
 

atwix

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yay. I wonder how.

I'd insert an event that turns occupied claims of India event into a CORE, ONCE.

Problem solved.
 

zdlugasz

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In 1444 Europe was well positioned to become the technological leaders and indeed dominate the world. But it was by no means inevitable. European dominance both in technological and other aspects occurred primarily as a result of events and decision made during the EUIV time period (along with a large helping of luck). For Europe to always end up dominant, regardless of what happens (barring direct player involvement), and with no real effort, is stupid.

Although I do agree - India shouldn't "westernise" by 1600. Because by 1600 there was very little about "the West" that India would've aspired to. Copying them at that time wouldn't have been "advancing". It was only well into the 17th century that European dominance came into being.

By 1600 Europeans did not have such big technological lead over India/China as they have in game. Most of Portugese successes came from exploiting internal divisions and supporting one local ruler against another. And Portugal clearly lost, even naval battles, against hostile Chinese in the first part of XVIth century.
 
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zdlugasz

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yay. I wonder how.

I'd insert an event that turns occupied claims of India event into a CORE, ONCE.

Problem solved.


Nope, it is just delaying /shutting down exploits, because Vijayanagar/Bahmanis/... will still have their cores on Goa/whatever.
You need to change westernization rules or delete local cores, which would be absurd.

Let us confront the truth. ANY conquest in Asia (as opposed to colonization) allows westernization, unless you can assure that no neigbour has core there.
 

atwix

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obviously i meant to remove the goa event AND to do the above ;)
 

zdlugasz

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obviously i meant to remove the goa event AND to do the above ;)

Changing westernization rules is design decision, as the decision what Asia should not westernize in game. Although it seems to me strange that observing/living next to Europeans Indian countries would not wish to update their military technology.
 

PhroX

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Changing westernization rules is design decision, as the decision what Asia should not westernize in game. Although it seems to me strange that observing/living next to Europeans Indian countries would not wish to update their military technology.

Perhaps the "neighbour bonus" should be...well, what it's name actually implies. You get the tech cost reduction from actually neighbouring more advanced nations instead of being in the same tech group as them....
 
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zdlugasz

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Anyway I do not believe that they change westernization rules in next patch, maybe later. It would require rework of the overall westernization concept/mechanism.
If you bar nations in India/Indonesia from westernizing because ENG/POR/SPA conquered their cores (and cored), then you will have absurd situation when whole Africa will westernize (via Marocco, which quite often is able to regain their cores due to rebels) and Asia not.

The only thing that may happen (I think) is change of core to claim/mission and some missions to guide Portugal to be more interesting in going around Africa, and not expanding into Western Africa.
 

Kyoumen

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In reality, actually, Indian states around the Portuguese feitorias in India rapidly adapted European ship technology. As little as 14 years after Vasco de Gama reached India, Portuguese sailors reported seeing local ships using previously-unknown lateen sails. They became nearly universal in short order, as well as copying Portuguese shipbuilding techniques.

Kinda... sounds... a little bit like Westernising, don't it?

Addendum: Of course, there was no chance Paradox was going to leave the event such that Indian nations all Westernise, even though without Westernising Indian states are absurdly weaker in the 1500 and 1600s than they actually historically were (Portugal failed several times to try and take fortresses in India by military action).

And, of course, Indian states copying and adopting Portuguese sailing technology (at a time, incidentally, when most of EUROPE was still using square sails and otherwise not as advanced) isn't actually the same as Westernising, because the EUIV technology system does not allow for, say, Gujarat to adopt Western (really, Portuguese, since again, most European countries didn't have it) sailing technology but not, say, economic organisation and financial systems. No more than it can account for how Japan rapidly adopted the concept of European firearms and then surpassed the European countries they adopted the technology from (let alone how they later essentially dropped this technology). No more than how it can account for how various African empires benefitted through the triangle trade.

Hopefully eventually the entire tech system can be reworked from the ground up. In EU5, perhaps, if nothing else (though I'm not sure it's any more major than some of the systems already changed in the game, like colonisation).
 
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TheMeInTeam

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yay. I wonder how.

I'd insert an event that turns occupied claims of India event into a CORE, ONCE.

Problem solved.

Unless by "event" you mean "AI or human player presses the core button", I don't see the point.

While I definitely agree that the tech system needs an overhaul, it should not be "1 times out of 5 a ROTW nation should break the mold". It should be "1 out of 5 times Europe remains a backwater, left lagging behind large parts of the ROTW" even without player interference.

The problem is how you do it and still have the game progress decently. The simplest approach is to make each start viable and favor Europe, which is what we have. I'm not sure how the game could model a huge variance in events causing Europe to stagnate or fall behind while a different group takes the forefront without fundamentally reworking the game, and making some reaches based on "what ifs" where we necessarily have no recorded history. While I wouldn't mind a fundamental rework, I think for the purposes of threads like this and what's realistic vs good for the game it's best to stay within the bounds of what can be reasonably implemented/removed wrt EU IV specifically. The problem with the Portuguese core event is that it bypasses the game's restrictions/modeling.

A good model allows historical and alternate-plausible historical things to happen within the framework of the game's base mechanics. A bad model relies on this kind of scripting or has flaws to the extent that even the developers using it acknowledge it isn't where they want it to be, and do so by implementing numerous mechanics that break the game's own rules/setup to bypass it.

The argument that this event is a problem because it allows westernization is *fundamentally nonsense*. You can make a case for or against westernization as a game mechanic, but that is irrelevant to the issues with Portugal and only Portugal being able to ignore colonial range, situation, money, and ability to take/hold the province and give it to them. If the game works in a fluid manner, any colonizer rounding Cape and sending trade back should be able similarly capture important provinces and core them, and do so within the game's mechanics instead of bypassing them. This case is particularly egregious because it would be readily handled with a generic Asian trade center mission and doesn't need to hand out freebies.
 

josh127

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It will change in the next patch.
Does no explanation of how indicate there's some new mechanic involved that hasn't been made public yet?
 

Dorevai

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Remember that part where they had to actually fight to get the territory? You know, that part that is central to gameplay and crucial to the historical event happening? No, you are applying history selectively here and arguing in favor of ahistorical events in the name of history. That's not credible.

Feel free to specify where I did that. Quoting my entire post and responding with 4 non-sensical sentences is lazy. I said the event should give a claim rather than a core in a previous post. That response you quoted was targeted at a claim that it was an inappropriate event as it was targeted at firing "hundreds of years into the game" when in fact the situation it is trying to replicate happened within one hundred years. I didn't say they should just get the land dude.

Hopefully eventually the entire tech system can be reworked from the ground up. In EU5, perhaps, if nothing else (though I'm not sure it's any more major than some of the systems already changed in the game, like colonisation).

It would be very nice if trade and war exchanged some tech benefits. Perhaps a cheap abstraction could be getting a -% dip tech bonus if a western country has a merchant in your trade capital region, and a one-time bonus of +xxx dip when a western country owns a province in the region.

I'd rather tech just spread on the province level altogether. Universities, advisors, and events might create hotspots and have the trade engine push and pull their influence around the world. Places like inland Africa which are excluded from the coastline trade region would get left behind rather naturally.
 
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