Wiz, the Portugal-India Core event is ridiculous

[PerryCaravello]

It is close to the 1600's, and Portugal got a core on Goa due to an event. There has never been a western nation that has come across the cape of Africa but in India we have gained the ability to Westernize.

So it is now the early 1600's and I have westernized and am all powerful, but for no real reason whatsoever. I realize that this may be necessary to help the AI move towards historical goals but it is game breaking as the player to be able to westernize for no reason.

 

[kitemasaki]

I agree. I find this core event a bit silly and not needed for obvious reasons. It is quite game breaking when a western nation arrives so they can start using Trade Companies & Protectorates, but the region is already westernizing. This wasn't thought through well before implementation. The whole 'westernization' mechanic is pretty bad anyhow, but I just don't see why this event was necessary considering the design of the game so far.

 

[Krajzen]

Historically Portugal got Goa - and other ports in Asia - during first years of 16th century. By 1520s Iberians had 'eu4 provinces' in Swahilli, Oman, India, Kongo, Malacca, Philippines, Indonesia and not sure when but in 16th century in Macau. Thus, if a bit of this historical reality was to be implemented, most of Orient should have eu4 ability to westernize anyway and I see no problem. I would love to see rapidly appearing European trade companies here.

What I would do is some way of limiting westernization as currently it is a bit too easy and simple - by 1821 half of the world or majority of it are westernized, irl that happened only to some NA tribes and partially to Japan and Siam. Maybe brute date restriction 'cannot westernize before 1600' or 'you need to complete administrative, innovative or economic group to westernize, or 'you need good relations with country you westernize from', or 'westernization brings you to higher tech group but not instantly to western' so:
eastern, muslim, ottoman -> insta western
indian, chinese -> equivalent of eastern, +20%
horde, american, subsaharan -> equivalent of muslim, +40%

Anyway, I hate name - calling Paradox devs 'I demand you to do that' as I find that rude.

 

[PerryCaravello]

Historically Portugal got Goa - and other ports in Asia - during first years of 16th century. By 1520s Iberians had 'eu4 provinces' in Swahilli, Oman, India, Kongo, Malacca, Philippines, Indonesia and not sure when but in 16th century in Macau. Thus, if a bit of this historical reality was to be implemented, most of Orient should have eu4 ability to westernize anyway and I see no problem. I would love to see rapidly appearing European trade companies here.

What I would do is some way of limiting westernization as currently it is a bit too easy and simple - by 1821 half of the world or majority of it are westernized, irl that happened only to some NA tribes and partially to Japan and Siam. Maybe brute date restriction 'cannot westernize before 1600' or 'you need to complete administrative, innovative or economic group to westernize, or 'you need good relations with country you westernize from', or 'westernization brings you to higher tech group but not instantly to western' so:
eastern, muslim, ottoman -> insta western
indian, chinese -> equivalent of eastern, +20%
horde, american, subsaharan -> equivalent of muslim, +40%

Anyway, I hate name - calling Paradox devs 'I demand you to do that' as I find that rude.

I agree I'd love to see European's showing up in the Orient earlier, but the point here is that they haven't even gone past the cape. I control it, we don't border each other. I and the rest of India is able to Westernize because Portugal got that core through an event. Maybe it should be a claim?

I am not trying to discuss a reworking of the westernization mechanic, just this event particularity.

 

[PerryCaravello]

Historically Portugal got Goa - and other ports in Asia - during first years of 16th century. By 1520s Iberians had 'eu4 provinces' in Swahilli, Oman, India, Kongo, Malacca, Philippines, Indonesia and not sure when but in 16th century in Macau. Thus, if a bit of this historical reality was to be implemented, most of Orient should have eu4 ability to westernize anyway and I see no problem. I would love to see rapidly appearing European trade companies here.

What I would do is some way of limiting westernization as currently it is a bit too easy and simple - by 1821 half of the world or majority of it are westernized, irl that happened only to some NA tribes and partially to Japan and Siam. Maybe brute date restriction 'cannot westernize before 1600' or 'you need to complete administrative, innovative or economic group to westernize, or 'you need good relations with country you westernize from', or 'westernization brings you to higher tech group but not instantly to western' so:
eastern, muslim, ottoman -> insta western
indian, chinese -> equivalent of eastern, +20%
horde, american, subsaharan -> equivalent of muslim, +40%

Anyway, I hate name - calling Paradox devs 'I demand you to do that' as I find that rude.

You hate the name of my thread? I'm asking Wiz to rework an event because I think it's ridiculous. What is rude about that? How else is Wiz supposed to know my opinion?

 

[josh127]

What I would do is some way of limiting westernization as currently it is a bit too easy and simple - by 1821 half of the world or majority of it are westernized, irl that happened only to some NA tribes and partially to Japan and Siam

Limiting westernization isn't an answer here. Portugal should be able to spread naturally. There's a problem with trade companies in that they are in complete control of provinces, in some areas regions. If you want trading posts along the coast, we need a trading post mechanic so they can build them, not just giving them entire provinces. But more importantly, just have the AI able to explore and colonize again. I mean, they used to do it, why did that go wrong? Fix that problem and the whole event is unnecessary.

Adding arbitrary restrictions to westernization won't fix the mechanic and make it more engaging. It needs work, but that's something they should take the time to think out and do a proper job with to ensure it ends up an engaging mechanic.

 

[PerryCaravello]

Limiting westernization isn't an answer here. Portugal should be able to spread naturally. There's a problem with trade companies in that they are in complete control of provinces, in some areas regions. If you want trading posts along the coast, we need a trading post mechanic so they can build them, not just giving them entire provinces. But more importantly, just have the AI able to explore and colonize again. I mean, they used to do it, why did that go wrong? Fix that problem and the whole event is unnecessary.

Adding arbitrary restrictions to westernization won't fix the mechanic and make it more engaging. It needs work, but that's something they should take the time to think out and do a proper job with to ensure it ends up an engaging mechanic.

This does sound like the ultimate answer. If there is a problem with AI exploration which made this event necessary please work on AI exploration. However much I love curb stomping Asia it makes me feel like I am playing a Custom Nation.

 

[josh127]

This does sound like the ultimate answer. If there is a problem with AI exploration which made this event necessary please work on AI exploration. However much I love curb stomping Asia it makes me feel like I am playing a Custom Nation.

Not sure if you've seen the thread in the suggestion forum for Campaigns (basically a system of soft guides to encourage nations down paths, and add flavor along the way), but pushing Portuguese expansion around Africa toward China seems like a real good scenario to fit as a campaign.

And sorry if I'm pushing a "good solution" being a feature that doesn't currently exist, but when I read the suggestion on the old forum I just fell for it as a great fit for a large hole in the game. A lot of the threads I see on the forum I think "That could be a campaign". Even westernization would make a great campaign instead of click a button, kill rebels, wait.

 

[PerryCaravello]

Not sure if you've seen the thread in the suggestion forum for Campaigns (basically a system of soft guides to encourage nations down paths, and add flavor along the way), but pushing Portuguese expansion around Africa toward China seems like a real good scenario to fit as a campaign.

And sorry if I'm pushing a "good solution" being a feature that doesn't currently exist, but when I read the suggestion on the old forum I just fell for it as a great fit for a large hole in the game. A lot of the threads I see on the forum I think "That could be a campaign". Even westernization would make a great campaign instead of click a button, kill rebels, wait.

Yeah i don't think this would be the first thing on the dev's list to fix this problem but in the long term i agree completely. Campaigns make a lot of sense. From what I've heard missions were really just a port from EU3 and don't really have much meaning in EU4. I know I only use them to try to gain some small benefit, or gain large amounts of territory easily as a nation like the Ottomans.

 

[AndroidEmperor]

I think it's weird to ALWAYS see Portugal there aswell.

+1

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The bizarre thing about the arguments in this thread is that it's allowing westernization. Is that supposed to be a joke?

The issue here is nations getting freebies from "dynamic" historical events that neither dynamic nor historical in the context they happen. This event can fire for Portugal when it's an inland OPM due to shared discovery, and the problem here is supposed to be that some Indian nations can spend money to still be in an inferior position?

There's no logic in attacking this event without attacking all of the ones like it, but there is tons in attacking all of the ones like it. Attacking this event simply because it allows westernization lacks any credibility whatsoever. You can finish westernization before 1550 as most Indian tech nations if you want to do it, many can go even faster.

 

[Chief of Staff]

I checked Wikipedia entry on Goa and it appears that Goa was actually made Portuguese territory not by purchase or invitation but by conquest. Thus, this event doesn't seem to fit the history but then again, EU4 is all about alternate history. I don't know what is Paradox's thinking or intent behind this event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_conquest_of_Goa

 

[Dorevai]

Event shouldn't put a western core in India given the current mechanics. Event should be changed to a claim.

Some folks here are making a mountain out of a molehill. Yea, westernization could be better. Yea, exploration could be better. This is just an outlier though. Portugal in general doesn't behave remotely historically and until african colonization gets addressed they never will.

 

[Shadow86]

I checked Wikipedia entry on Goa and it appears that Goa was actually made Portuguese territory not by purchase or invitation but by conquest. Thus, this event doesn't seem to fit the history but then again, EU4 is all about alternate history. I don't know what is Paradox's thinking or intent behind this event.

As it was implied earlier, it's meant to be an AI crutch, a proverbial carrot so that they get out there and start colonizing the place like they did in real history.

But yeah, it should probably be made a claim instead of a core, if the latter is providing locals an easy way to westernize. That's probably unintended.

 

[Chief of Staff]

I'm just curious as whether westernized states in India made it more difficult to conquer them as Europeans. I almost never had any issues in games before El Dorado (my current game just arrived at India now so can't really say how it will turn out now that they westernize early) but that could be because I deployed a large force to India, typically starting out with 45k army and later expand my military in India with armies built there so that combined with my vassals there I usually win most of the wars with Indian states there.

Also, I thought trade companies was suppose to greatly retard the pace of westernization in bordering states or was that changed?

 

[josh127]

Also, I thought trade companies was suppose to greatly retard the pace of westernization in bordering states or was that changed?

With this event it's not about having borders it's about having shared cores. If you share a core with a western nation you can westernize off it. A "shared core" is any province that has both your core and the core of a western nation regardless of who owns it. Been that way for quite some time, but a lot of people aren't aware of it.

 

[Illianor123]

Should be a claim with a free core if conquered.

 

[indika_tates]

Just remove the indian cores after giving it to Portugal. The event is nice because Portugal deserves some love. The first thing I ever do playing as Portugal is attacking everyone with a core on it to revoke and eliminate any chance of westernizing. Also, fix it because you can get Goa too early with military access from Mamluks to Viyajanagar with a conquistador.

 

[NightKev]

You hate the name of my thread? I'm asking Wiz to rework an event because I think it's ridiculous. What is rude about that? How else is Wiz supposed to know my opinion?

Isn't Wiz the AI programmer?

 

[Dorevai]

Wiz can wiz all the things. He is Wiz.