Wiz, for the love of all that is good and holy, fix this please

[MiniaAr]

My take on this: Cosmopolitaine is not a culture, never has been and never will be outside of EU. That's not the same as advocating tiny cultures all over the map.

Japanese is a culture in the Japanese group. French could most certainly be a culture in the French group, along others, how confusing is this really? Francien, Francilien, Parisien are bad substitutes ar the "French" language comes more from the Orléans-Tours region than from Paris.

Finally, France not the cultural union of the French group makes sense, and Revolutionary France could become the cultural union instead: an actual incentive to form this country (which should have specific national ideas, including Liberté Égalité Fraternité, which has nothing to do in the Kingdom of France set).

 

[Incompetent]

I would not call Duchy of Burgundy a civil war state, because it actually won its independence and its existence as sovereign state was just too long.

But you are missing the point, if France would have been a super power why was it losing to a great power? Unless it itself was just a great power, it isn't even first 15th century wasn't even first time that happened, before reconquest of Philip II Augustus in 12th century England owned even more of France than it does in the picture that I posted.

I'm not just talking about Burgundy, which consisted of a fair amount of de jure French land in addition to their 'sovereign' (actually HRE) lands. I'm talking about the Plantagenets, who happened to also own England There wasn't a clear-cut 'French' side in the HYW, because both sides had the support of a significant chunk of the French elite at certain stages in the war. If it had been simply an English invasion of France, the English wouldn't have got very far.

 

[Subbak]

Yeah, Liberté Égalité Fraternité as a NI is doubly weird, for the flavor (although I guess the phrase is from 1790 and the republic was only proclaimed in 1791), and because that + Édit de Nantes means you're mostly avoiding religious wars. The whole point of the Édit de Nantes was to put an end to religious wars, if they had not been ravaging the country for years it would probably not have existed.

 

[IsadorBG]

About defeats: yes, France new lot of defeats. And survived.

Ironically enough France is the country that has the best victory/defeat ration in Europe for the EU4 era.

The thing about the hundred years war that a lot of people forget is that while France suffered some embarassing defeat and was for a short while in a difficult situation let's not forget who won that war right ?

Not surprisingly thus French won more battles than the English in that war. It's just that the English victories were more spectacular than the French ones.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/battles/french_military_victories.asp

 

[Subbak]

Ironically enough France is the country that has the best victory/defeat ration in Europe for the EU4 era.

The thing about the hundred years war that a lot of people forget is that while France suffered some embarrassing defeat and was for a short while in a difficult situation let's not forget who won that war right ?

Not surprisingly thus French won more battles than the English in that war. It's just that the English victories were more spectacular than the French ones.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/battles/french_military_victories.asp

The French defeats were extremely embarassing. In most cases it can be argued the French forces managed to defeat themselves and the English merely helped them. I mean, in Crécy French knights charged through their own infantry, trampling them. And let's not forget Azincourt many years later, where a vastly superior forces of cavalry was slaughtered by English archers because they were stuck in the mud.

 

[Fugu]

Wouldn't annoy so much if the culture name wasn't used for colonial nation names. Colonial Canada region gets "French Canada" tho for some reason. Not a problem if you're playing France yourself ofcourse, but with AI France the map can be littered with things like "Cosmopolitaine México". Ugh.

 

[IrishSultan]

Ironically enough France is the country that has the best victory/defeat ration in Europe for the EU4 era.

The thing about the hundred years war that a lot of people forget is that while France suffered some embarassing defeat and was for a short while in a difficult situation let's not forget who won that war right ?

Not surprisingly thus French won more battles than the English in that war. It's just that the English victories were more spectacular than the French ones.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/battles/french_military_victories.asp

I'm not sure what the criteria are for a battle to be included in that list, but it seems like a very incomplete list, it's missing the battle of the gulden spurs (which the french lost), and the battle of courtrai (1794) (which they won) for example.

 

[Clonefusion]

Nah if the Lancaster won the nobles in England would have been forced to abandon la langue noble for English and we would all be speaking a proper language in this forum.

U mean german right

 

[Chlodio]

By the way Burgundy has never been independent from France.

In 1420 Philip allied himself with Henry V of England under the Treaty of Troyes.
Despite this action against Joan of Arc, Philip's alliance with England was broken in 1435 when Philip signed the Treaty of Arras and thus recognized Charles VII as king of France.
Philip then attacked Calais, but this alliance with Charles was broken in 1439, with Philip supporting the revolt of the French nobles the following year and sheltering the Dauphin Louis.

I guess Duchy of Burgundy's independence is kind of gray area, if Philip didn't recognize Charles VII as king of France, he would be vassal of England? Why do all maps specifically show lands controlled by England and Burgundy, like they would be separate or saying Anglo-Burgundian alliance, instead of just saying England. Then Burgundy decides to break the alliance to recognized Charles VII as king of France, but not as their liege? And they broke the alliance, which would mean they were just allies? Why would vassals be allies if they're already your subjects?

1) Please read the beginning of the sentence:
Examples of these ancient or historic superpowers include; Ancient Egypt,[11] the Persian Empire,[12] the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great,[13] the Roman Empire,[14] the Mongol Empire, the Ottoman Empire , the Portuguese Empire, the Spanish Empire,[15] and the First French Empire of Napoleon.[16]
Either it would be dishonesty.

2) Just look at this tab under this sentence on the Wikipedia page.
Check if France was not amongst the top countries for nearly every criteria.
If the answer is ''Yes'': well done, France was a power/superpower (a power being less efficient in most criteria, while still being efficient in some of them).
If the answer is ''No''. Okay, do it again.

http://i.imgur.com/4m30k50.png
I don't approve your act of misquote.

1) Yeah I did miss "examples", why would it list 1st French Empire instead of Kingdom of France, they're just examples?

2) Tab? Let's define word superpower, you seem to think a superpower is country that has a large population, a lot production and big army? That would mean PPC and India are super powers?

I believe it would be this:

An extremely powerful nation, especially one capable of influencing international events and the acts and policies of less powerful nations.

If you claim that France was superpower in 11th-17th centuries you mean it had a hegemony over Europe, something it only had during 1st French Empire.

 

[Gaamel]

Steps to reproduce :

1. Click the Paris province
2. Look at the culture box
3. Culture is wrong. Cosmopolitaine is not the name of a culture.

Suggested fix :

Replace Cosmopolitaine with a proper culture name like "French", "Middle French" (credits : CanOmer), "Parisian", "Francien", "Francilien".

Truth is, the "French" culture we currently enjoy here is the result of a massive education policy in the 19th Century. A very Parisian idea of how the language should be written and spoken prevailed, and has erased Century after Century most regional identities (most of them still survive today though, like in Corsica, Brittany, Alsace, etc). "Cosmopolitaine" is wrong if you consider that the "French language" is not the result of a cultural mix, but rather the triumph of the Parisian way.

Gameplay-wise this should give two cultural groups in France : langue d'oc (the South) and langue d'oïl (the North), mutually non-accepted, with their respective regional cultures inside (Picard, Norman, etc, for the North; Gascon, Provençal, Auvergnat, etc, for the South). IF you control Paris, found the Académie Française and control something like half of the Southern provinces, then you may have a decision/pop-up to change the primary culture to "French" and have everything accepted (well, except Basque I suppose...)

 

[AchedTeacher]

Isn't it the only culture in it's group?

Alright, for a more accurate example look at Mayan culture.

 

[InFerroVeritas]

Truth is, the "French" culture we currently enjoy here is the result of a massive education policy in the 19th Century. A very Parisian idea of how the language should be written and spoken prevailed, and has erased Century after Century most regional identities (most of them still survive today though, like in Corsica, Brittany, Alsace, etc). "Cosmopolitaine" is wrong if you consider that the "French language" is not the result of a cultural mix, but rather the triumph of the Parisian way.

Right. While the origins of what would become the "French" identity emerged in the 10th or 11th century, the vast majority of the country was not French until around the 18th century. It took the... Gallicization (is that even a term?) of the country under its education reforms to actually effect that change. Alsace is a really good example of this. Historically, it was German. French didn't overtake German (well, the Alsatian dialect of Upper German) until the 20th century. Paris was very thorough in its attempts to Gallicize its linguistic minorities.

Nor was France alone in this. Look at German. The reason I can say "German" and have you know exactly what I'm talking about is because we only have the one German language: Standarddeutsch. We no longer have to worry about whether we're talking about Upper or Lower German or the eighty bajillion little dialects or even the old variants (High German comes to mind). While there are some national variations, it's still basically the same language. There's probably less variation in it than, say, English. And when you don't have that kind of standardization, you eventually get distinct languages.

It would be awesome if EU4 had some way to model the slow cultural conversion that took place. Even if it were just CK2's mechanic where there's a change over time, rather than something like "this province will become your culture in (basetax*10) years" or whatever, it would be a significant improvement and much more realistic besides.

 

[MiniaAr]

Right. While the origins of what would become the "French" identity emerged in the 10th or 11th century, the vast majority of the country was not French until around the 18th century. It took the... Gallicization (is that even a term?) of the country under its education reforms to actually effect that change. Alsace is a really good example of this. Historically, it was German. French didn't overtake German (well, the Alsatian dialect of Upper German) until the 20th century. Paris was very thorough in its attempts to Gallicize its linguistic minorities.

Nor was France alone in this. Look at German. The reason I can say "German" and have you know exactly what I'm talking about is because we only have the one German language: Standarddeutsch. We no longer have to worry about whether we're talking about Upper or Lower German or the eighty bajillion little dialects or even the old variants (High German comes to mind). While there are some national variations, it's still basically the same language. There's probably less variation in it than, say, English. And when you don't have that kind of standardization, you eventually get distinct languages.

It would be awesome if EU4 had some way to model the slow cultural conversion that took place. Even if it were just CK2's mechanic where there's a change over time, rather than something like "this province will become your culture in (basetax*10) years" or whatever, it would be a significant improvement and much more realistic besides.

I don't really agree with this. The use of standard French was imposed on other closely related languages and dialects: Occitan, Franco-provençal, Gascon, Lorrain, Picard, etc... but languages from other cultural groups have survived to this day: Corsican, Basque, Alsatian. The exception there being Breton, that died but came back more recently. Regarding Alsatian, it remained spoken by a large majority of people until at least WW2. A simple explanation for that is that the language laws passed at the turn of the XXth century didn't apply to Alsace, at it was in Germany at the time.

Finally, it has not been my experience all Germans speak the same language today. But I mainly encounter Austrians, Bavarians and Luxembourgians so I'm probably biased. They know standard German but much prefer speak their own dialects with one another, with other Germans and with foreigners as well.

 

[Ilightmaster]

Personnally i don't care, and it seems to me that all of you are a bunch of trolls.

English culture could be aswell renamed french because in 1444 if i reminder it well Henri IV consider himself as the true king of France... so cosmopolitans or watever. as long as they got another culture

 

[Elfryc]

http://i.imgur.com/4m30k50.png
I don't approve your act of misquote.

1) Yeah I did miss "examples", why would it list 1st French Empire instead of Kingdom of France, they're just examples?

I didn't misquoted. YOU did.

This is the proof, because it seems that's needed:

Wikipedia lists 1st French Empire as a superpower, but not the Kingdom of France, and with leadership of Louis XIV France just grew stronger, where did you get the idea that Kingdom of France actually was weakened by rule of Louis XIV?

You're using an example list as an exhaustive list, and says that because Ancien Régime France isn't in the example list it wasn't a superpower.
Totally laughable, if you want my opinion.

2) Tab? Let's define word superpower, you seem to think a superpower is country that has a large population, a lot production and big army? That would mean PPC and India are super powers?

I believe it would be this:

An extremely powerful nation, especially one capable of influencing international events and the acts and policies of less powerful nations.

If you claim that France was superpower in 11th-17th centuries you mean it had a hegemony over Europe, something it only had during 1st French Empire.

The trouble is you're using words without knowing their defintions.

Superpower: a nation being highly ranked in most, if not all ot these fields: politics - culture - military - economy - demography - geographical extent. In my sense, medias don't have anything to do in the definition of superpower.
Merriem-Webster is wrong for this definition, because that's a technical term defined in a generalistic dictionary.

Hegemony: the fact of having the dominant position in political fields (even if this may be applied know for more specific fields: economy, culture, etc.).
Merriem-Webster is better than for superpower, because that' a non-technical word, and quite generally accepted (and as such less precise).

There's to add a power: a nation being highly ranked in one or some fields, but none in all of them.

Some precise examples: Macedonia had hegemony over Greece after Philip II conqueered the whole of it.
Macedonia was a superpower after having destroyed the former one, Persian Empire.

Another example: Ancient Near East, 2nd half of the IInd millenium. Babylon, Assyria, Hittites and Egypt were four superpowers. None of them had hegemony over Near East.
It's only when Assyria, then Babylon, then Median Empire, then Persian Empire, then Alexander the Great conqueered nearly all of Near East they became were superpowers AND hegemon.

Last example, Cold War. Both USA and USSR were superpowers. None of them had hegemony over any part of the world, as show the various guerillas and other events happening everywhere in the world in that time.

Now, regarding current India and China: they're regional powers. They're highly ranked for quite a lot of fields, but none of them is a superpower. They have influence because of their population, geographical extent, their economy, etc. They're not superpowers, in the sense that they can't really enforce any decision over quite a lot of country in their know world (meaning the whole world, in our era).

Only USA are currently a superpower, even if most people believed for a time (after 1991) they were an hyperpower (nearly a synonym of ''master of the world'', even if this would mean having hegemny over the whole world).

Going back to the topic we're discussing: France was a power or a superpower, depending of the time. During HYW, they were not a superpower, that's an evidence, but they were a power.
Please see the criteria for (super)power, as I said the first time.

 

[ChrisFox]

Britannica lists a super power as "A superpower is a state that cannot be ignored on the world stage and without whose cooperation no world problem can be solved."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1922499/superpower

I don't see how you could consider the France of this time period a superpower.

Especially since the international politics for one to arise didn't really come into play until recently in history.

 

[Ilightmaster]

Great power seems more appropiate, EXCUSE him.

 

[Brodacious]

Cosmo-Texas gets old.

 

[MiniaAr]

Personnally i don't care, and it seems to me that all of you are a bunch of trolls.

English culture could be aswell renamed french because in 1444 if i reminder it well Henri IV consider himself as the true king of France... so cosmopolitans or watever. as long as they got another culture

Sure. Why not rename English culture to Bloody Mary, why give France a special treatment after all!

 

[IsadorBG]

In 1420 Philip allied himself with Henry V of England under the Treaty of Troyes.
Despite this action against Joan of Arc, Philip's alliance with England was broken in 1435 when Philip signed the Treaty of Arras and thus recognized Charles VII as king of France.
Philip then attacked Calais, but this alliance with Charles was broken in 1439, with Philip supporting the revolt of the French nobles the following year and sheltering the Dauphin Louis.

I guess Duchy of Burgundy's independence is kind of gray area, if Philip didn't recognize Charles VII as king of France, he would be vassal of England? Why do all maps specifically show lands controlled by England and Burgundy, like they would be separate or saying Anglo-Burgundian alliance, instead of just saying England. Then Burgundy decides to break the alliance to recognized Charles VII as king of France, but not as their liege? And they broke the alliance, which would mean they were just allies? Why would vassals be allies if they're already your subjects?.

Umm I think you're confusing rebelious attitude with independence. It's not because burgundy fight its liege that they are independent.

Don't take EU4 mechanics to litterarly you can think of burgundy as in between a disloyal subject and a HRE states in eu4 terms. (as HRE members are vassal of the emperor).

Plus as it was already said the HYW war was a civil war not a war between two states. And in that configuration things makes more sense.
Think CK2 vassals not how EU4 handle them.

Burgundy was a French fiefdom and thus was vassal of the King of France.
The only real question being who is the King of France.