Without deving instutions, playing in the East is impossible

[RTErk]

I see these threads a lot lately. So, here's the thing : If you can't dev instutions, you literally cannot play in the East.

In a normal game, the West come into India and China and so when, like, Global Trade or Manufactories. If you just remove deving instutions, that forces the player to have %250 tech cost increase by the time the Europeans arrive. There is literally nothing you can do against this. It's like removing reforming from Native Americans, it just forces you to not play them.

And supporting a reforming system like the Natives is just stupid. Nations in the East are not primitive. They were, tech wise, superior to the West at one point ! A reforming system would be time consuming and just boring over all since by the time you do all your reforms, its already 1550s and the tech difference is SO big that at that point, you should already give up (reminder that the West comes in Global Trade, so by the time the Europeans come, they are rich AF and even if you catch up on tech, you need to lose a war to do so). The only reason that the reform system in the Americas is balanced is because it takes a long time for the Europeans to arrive and you already accept the fact that one, you are primitive and two, you will lose a war.

There is also the MP games, in a MP game a nation like Muscovy can just steamroll all the way to Chagatai before anybody stops him. By the time he cores Urumqi, Ming will only start to get Renaissance.

This idea to remove deving instutions is just... stupid. You are changing the game from Europa Universalis to Europa. You are forcing people to play in Europe since you "can't conquer the indian nations ". You want historical ? Don't make it THIS harsh. I am open for new ideas, maybe a debuff to armies when the Europeans come ? That would be handy to keep the game historical while not destroying tech.

 

[Sapa Inca]

Without develop your provinces the penalty don't reach 250% if you are playing right.
Institutions can be spawned outside Europe, the only exceptions are "renaissance" and "printing press" what is equal to 100% tech penalty.
Even if some institutions spawn in Europe, border spread plus other factor spreads are enough to you embrace old institutions at some point, each institution accumulate a tech penalty of 50% after 50 years, if you are playing right you are not wasting 250 years in game without embracing a single institution even if you are not developing your provinces.
Yes, it is true that playing in Asia without develop your provinces is equal to to play the entire game after "renaissance" with a tech penalty, but the tech penalty will normally not reach values as high as 250%, depending of your tech penalty (how much depend of various factors) fight against one European country in a defensive war is viable.

I like of the concept of pay monarch points to develop one institution in your province, maybe just maybe the quantity of institution spread that you gain per development increased should be nerfed a bit but the concept is better than the old westernization system.
My main complain about institutions are 2.

1- The hardest institutions to spawn or get outside of Europe are two early institutions: The "renaissance" and "printing press", later institutions are easy to spawn or get but it should be the inverse, the technological level of Europe and Asia were similar and the gap started later in the time frame of the game, outside Europe early institutions should be the easiest to embrace and later institutions should be the hardest and the tech penalty hard cap of 50% should be higher for later institutions.
There is tech disparity between Europe's AI and Asia's AI in the second half of early game and in the first half of mid game, after it everyone become equal in the second half of mid game or in late game, this situation should be the inverse.

2- We need 1 institution before "feudalism", having only feudalism before "renaissance" make native americans, african kingdoms, african tribes, asiatic tribes, hordes and siberian tribes all start with the same penalty, what is wrong and contribute to the gameplay of these tags be more similar, it is bad. With the old westernization system tech penalties were different for all these cases, a new institution before "feudalism" solve this problem.

 

[alexti]

I see these threads a lot lately. So, here's the thing : If you can't dev instutions, you literally cannot play in the East.

I prefer to play in the East without developing institution. The need to acquire institutions via various game mechanics is what makes playing in Asia and Africa interesting and unique. If one were to develop institutions it would be just like playing in Europe plus extra hundred clicks or so.

 

[Sidolowka]

Renaissance is impossible to spawn in Asia.

Reminder that even if you do colonise, Colonialism has a much higher chance of spawning in Europe due to

1. Europe having more 12 dev provinces
2. Europe having more colonisers. (At the very least Portugal, Spain and one of England/France/Netherlands/Norway)
3. Most of Europe having a lower province id count than Asia. All institutions check available provinces starting from Stockholm (province id 1), counting up. This means that the Institution needs to pass most of Europe to even have a chance of spawning in Asia.

The only way for Printing Press to spawn in Asia is for you to snake your way to Western Europe and convert yourself to Protestant, before 1550. Have fun.

Global trade onwards is much easier to get, which is pretty unrealistic considering how Asia was ahead of Europe in the early game, but fell behind them technologically around when Global trade happened.

 

[Aywol]

Hello RTErk!

I started the thread to to which you are probably referring. I agree that just removing the ability to dev institutions would make playing in the East considerably less fun. After all, I could just play as alexti does and just voluntarily not dev insstitutions---and I don't.

I suspect the only answer here is a new tech system.

What do you think of bigbadwolf_45's suggestion in the other thread? He suggested increasing the wealth and manpower of the East to compensate for weaker tech.

 

[RTErk]

Hello RTErk!

I started the thread to to which you are probably referring. I agree that just removing the ability to dev institutions would make playing in the East considerably less fun. After all, I could just play as alexti does and just voluntarily not dev insstitutions---and I don't.

I suspect the only answer here is a new tech system.

What do you think of bigbadwolf_45's suggestion in the other thread? He suggested increasing the wealth and manpower of the East to compensate for weaker tech.

That would be more historically accurate and a pretty good deal. Trading tech for manpower and wealth is great but I don't know how they would implement it. They would have to increase the dev of the provinces in Asia which would increase the chances of Colonialism starting in Asia which would screw over all of these plans.

You are right, a new tech system would be better and refreshing.

 

[MrParadux]

Most of Europe having a lower province id count than Asia. All institutions check available provinces starting from Stockholm (province id 1), counting up. This means that the Institution needs to pass most of Europe to even have a chance of spawning in Asia.

Shouldn't that mean that Stockholm always gets manufacturies, if they have one built?
Even if the system just rolls for the provinces in order with a chance, most of the times I see manufacturies spawn in Asia and not Europe so I am not sure if it really works like that.

 

[Sidolowka]

Shouldn't that mean that Stockholm always gets manufacturies, if they have one built?
Even if the system just rolls for the provinces in order with a chance, most of the times I see manufacturies spawn in Asia and not Europe so I am not sure if it really works like that.

No it means that Stockholm rolls the dice first. Let's say each province has a 5% chance of rolling for a hit. Stockholm (id 1) would roll for 5%, then Ostergotland (id 2), then Kalmar (id 3), then Bergslagen, etc. Segovia, (province numebr 4789, a Castillian province added in 1.30), would roll at the very last, since they have the highest province id.

Each province has the exact same chance of rolling for an institutions (assuming they fill the conditions). It's just that it's very unlikely for provinces with higher id's to get them, since they come so late in order. And Europe not only has a higher province denstiy than the rest of the world, they also have a higher condensation of lower id provinces since patch 1.0 rolled with far more provinces in Europe than ROTW.

If every single province rolled for Institutions on exactly the same moment of Jan 1st, that would mean that, say Calais (id 89) and Satsuma (id 1012, the lowest in Japan) would have the same chance on getting the spawn, but since in game the roll starts with Stockholm, that means Satsuma has a substantially lower chance of spawning the institution since they have to hang on the chance of all 1011 provinces in front of them missing the roll, compared to Calais only needing 88.

 

[MrParadux]

Makes sense, but do we know for sure that it works that way?

 

[petertju]

I see these threads a lot lately. So, here's the thing : If you can't dev instutions, you literally cannot play in the East.

In a normal game, the West come into India and China and so when, like, Global Trade or Manufactories. If you just remove deving instutions, that forces the player to have %250 tech cost increase by the time the Europeans arrive. There is literally nothing you can do against this. It's like removing reforming from Native Americans, it just forces you to not play them.

This is really nonsense, you can easily play and shine without deving institutions. The earliest that Europeans show up is 1550 - 1600, this gives you more than 100 years to prepare for them to arrive. Even when they arrive, they are shit at naval invasions, especially with the new naval attrition. I understand that it sucks to pay 50-100-150% extra MP, but saying it is literally unplayable is just exaggerated.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

Shouldn't that mean that Stockholm always gets manufacturies, if they have one built?
Even if the system just rolls for the provinces in order with a chance, most of the times I see manufacturies spawn in Asia and not Europe so I am not sure if it really works like that.

If Stockholm is elligible for manufacturies it should be the most likely province to spawn it. But if the individual province odds are fairly low you would need a lot of games to see it.

Bit first you need to be eligible to spawn it. That requires (Based on the wiki) it to be 20 dev and have two adjacent 15 dev provinces. And it needs a manufactury other than a farm estate (or the new buildings).

I can’t check right now, but from what I can recall amd / or find with google, Stockholm starts at 13 dev, which is higher dev than any of its neighbours, and produces grain.

While it probably gets to 20 dev in many games, the two adjacent 15 dev provinces is going to be much less consistentfpd the Ai. But beyond I believe the trade good us grain, so without an event changing the trade good spawning manufacturies in Stockholm is impossible.

 

[alexti]

Renaissance is impossible to spawn in Asia.

Reminder that even if you do colonise, Colonialism has a much higher chance of spawning in Europe due to

1. Europe having more 12 dev provinces
2. Europe having more colonisers. (At the very least Portugal, Spain and one of England/France/Netherlands/Norway)
3. Most of Europe having a lower province id count than Asia. All institutions check available provinces starting from Stockholm (province id 1), counting up. This means that the Institution needs to pass most of Europe to even have a chance of spawning in Asia.

The only way for Printing Press to spawn in Asia is for you to snake your way to Western Europe and convert yourself to Protestant, before 1550. Have fun.

Global trade onwards is much easier to get, which is pretty unrealistic considering how Asia was ahead of Europe in the early game, but fell behind them technologically around when Global trade happened.

It is wrong to focus on where the institution spawns. You can't rely on spawning all institutions yourself even if you are in Europe and I don't think it's an intended way to play the game. Instead you acquire institutions by letting them spread to you or by spreading yourself into institutions (or, more likely, some combination of both). You will end up typically paying some 20-30% extra per tech on average because it's worth getting some technologies quicker rather than wait for the spread, but it's hardly making it impossible to play.

 

[alexti]

I suspect the only answer here is a new tech system.

What do you think of bigbadwolf_45's suggestion in the other thread? He suggested increasing the wealth and manpower of the East to compensate for weaker tech.

I don't think this problem is really solvable without remaking the game. Europe didn't even have much of tech advantage (except for naval technologies) for the most of the time period covered by the game - the tech gap has only started to appear from industrial revolution on. European success in Asia wasn't that much a matter of a military conquest, but rather around politics and commerce which game doesn't simulate at all.

 

[Greene]

Sorry to be that guy but not being able to dev institutions? Is it in? Is it coming?

 

[damnt512]

I see these threads a lot lately. So, here's the thing : If you can't dev instutions, you literally cannot play in the East.

In a normal game, the West come into India and China and so when, like, Global Trade or Manufactories. If you just remove deving instutions, that forces the player to have %250 tech cost increase by the time the Europeans arrive. There is literally nothing you can do against this. It's like removing reforming from Native Americans, it just forces you to not play them.

And supporting a reforming system like the Natives is just stupid. Nations in the East are not primitive. They were, tech wise, superior to the West at one point ! A reforming system would be time consuming and just boring over all since by the time you do all your reforms, its already 1550s and the tech difference is SO big that at that point, you should already give up (reminder that the West comes in Global Trade, so by the time the Europeans come, they are rich AF and even if you catch up on tech, you need to lose a war to do so). The only reason that the reform system in the Americas is balanced is because it takes a long time for the Europeans to arrive and you already accept the fact that one, you are primitive and two, you will lose a war.

There is also the MP games, in a MP game a nation like Muscovy can just steamroll all the way to Chagatai before anybody stops him. By the time he cores Urumqi, Ming will only start to get Renaissance.

This idea to remove deving instutions is just... stupid. You are changing the game from Europa Universalis to Europa. You are forcing people to play in Europe since you "can't conquer the indian nations ". You want historical ? Don't make it THIS harsh. I am open for new ideas, maybe a debuff to armies when the Europeans come ? That would be handy to keep the game historical while not destroying tech.

Nope. I usually don't dev institution when playing Manchu. Because I have a lot of conquering to do. And I was fine. Qing was still a superpower. Also complaining about MP ? That's the place where people will use whatever strat to win, including devving an institution. Don't play MP if you don't like people using a certain feature from the game that the AI never do.

 

[Josar]

The development system is fine. It gives agency to the players, and asks them to make a trade off. Sometimes I even develop an institution (at least partially) in Europe, and now that it gives crown land, it is even better.

 

[Dragonquack]

I like the suggestions in the other thread, instead of dev spawning institutions, a more historically realistic game would be how the East just has an insane population and development as compared to Europe. Right now, Germany has more dev than a united India, which makes zero sense