With the new emphasis on leaders, Shroud Covenants killing them just became even more punishing.

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A2ch0n

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Or just change how the nabbing works. Currently, it happens "off-screen" and even if the science ship is far away from the supposed nabber.
Actually you have to decide during the first contact chain what todo and that is a really good basis. So my idea would be:

The "let's nab some" option should make you hostile to the other empire and you can attack them. If you manage to destroy a ship or even a station you get your nab. Problem solved. The huge advantage is, that science ships automatically disengage as soon a hostile is present. If your science ship disengages, your leader is safe and no nab happens. If it's destroyed you're successfull. In this case the leader casualties are drastically reduced, especially because it's easier to attack a starbase or a construction ship or even some corvettes.
 
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JamesX

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"Don't even take the thing that makes your pops have stronger output than other ascensions in exchange for the pop assembly loss you have with or without it" is not the "psionics is fine" claim you think it is. And I'm even less confident in your ascension balance assessment for the fact you apparently think there are only three ascensions.
You seems to think that Psionic's only bonus is from the pact itself. Which it is not. The individual bonuses from psionic trait, the bonuses from telepaths, the best jump tech and shield tech, and random boost from the shroud - which can combined with pisonic crystal that lower the cool down. Which are the normal pisonic bonuses. The pact is just an optional part of the ascension where you gain some bonuses AND expose yourself to some risks.

You don't have to make your poop stronger. But if you choose to make it stronger then you will need to balance it against that the poop might blow up in your face.

To think that because poop explosion to your face is now worse means Psionic Ascension is somehow weaker than the other 3 just shows how one dimension your thinking is.
 
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Thiend

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think that because poop explosion to your face is now worse means Psionic Ascension is somehow weaker than the other 3 just shows how one dimension your thinking is.
Oh man, a poop explosion? What a strong ascension.

I have mostly lost the ability to take your comment seriously, but to the extent that I can; psionics getting any ship components at all is not guaranteed, lacking the power tech to do anything meaningful with shields is guaranteed until you can take on a fallen empire, and other ascensions are strictly better than psionics for per-pop production without Instruments of Desire. They are almost as good with it, and they have pop assembly.

If you want me to accept downsides for what I can only assume you were trying to say was explosively good pops, 5-10% is not going to cut it. Try 40-50% effective increased production. This brings me to the 5-10% bonus psionics has over other ascensions, which is more along the lines of 3-6% in real output, with a quarter or so fewer pops at least which DO scale multiplicatively. With 50% bonus resources, a 20% boost gives 150+20=170 and not 150*1.2=180. This means the extremely minor percentage output bonuses on psionics over other ascensions do almost nothing. With 20% more pops on a 50% boost, you get 20% more than after-bonuses production: 20% from telepaths gives 20% before-bonuses production. This means that pop assembly alone gives more of an output boost than psionics has, except they also have actual output bonuses: they're just slightly smaller.

Psionics does not have production bonuses competing with pop assembly (which would still be worse, mind, because of the above, but could be a fair trade for potentially great shroud bonuses). It has production bonuses competing with slightly smaller production bonuses and pop assembly.

This means that, generously, psionics with all shroud bonuses unlocked might be on par with other ascensions - except they don't have a mutually parasitic relationship with spiritualist, and are guaranteed to get all of their bonuses after one project and the tradition itself. In order for psionic to get the full bonuses necessary to maybe be on par with the other ascensions you need the same number of projects, a Holy Covenant at level 5 (and therefore almost always the diplomacy tree in addition to the psionic tree), to fish for stuff from the shroud for literal decades worth of game time, get or buy zro, and to gain dark matter reactors. Oh, and the tech for psionics itself is rare with a specially rare specialty trait. Don't try to tell me psionics is really strong if your argument is going to make it clear you read off the wiki what psionics can give you but obviously have never actually tried it to compare it to literally any other ascension.

Ironically, your thinking is entirely one dimensional - psionics CAN have these bonuses, therefore it does and every single peripheral loss MUST be trivial because you've played other ascensions and those had trivial downsides. Guess what: they're not. Don't condescend if you can't back it up with knowledge instead of "poop explosion" and how psionics isn't the "worse of the 3 ascensions." Here's a hint: there are four ascensions. This is why I'm not taking you seriously. Are you playing on a previous version and literally unaware of the downsides or something? Is that why you think there are three ascensions? Do you actually literally have no idea what you're talking about or are you just incapable of assessing all (four) ascensions and seeing that they all have comparable upsides except only psionics has downsides compared to no ascension at all?
 
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Abdulijubjub

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Oh man, a poop explosion? What a strong ascension.

I have mostly lost the ability to take your comment seriously, but to the extent that I can; psionics getting any ship components at all is not guaranteed, lacking the power tech to do anything meaningful with shields is guaranteed until you can take on a fallen empire, and other ascensions are strictly better than psionics for per-pop production without Instruments of Desire. They are almost as good with it, and they have pop assembly.

If you want me to accept downsides for what I can only assume you were trying to say was explosively good pops, 5-10% is not going to cut it. Try 40-50% effective increased production. This brings me to the 5-10% bonus psionics has over other ascensions, which is more along the lines of 3-6% in real output, with a quarter or so fewer pops at least which DO scale multiplicatively. With 50% bonus resources, a 20% boost gives 150+20=170 and not 150*1.2=180. This means the extremely minor percentage output bonuses on psionics over other ascensions do almost nothing. With 20% more pops on a 50% boost, you get 20% more than after-bonuses production: 20% from telepaths gives 20% before-bonuses production. This means that pop assembly alone gives more of an output boost than psionics has, except they also have actual output bonuses: they're just slightly smaller.

Psionics does not have production bonuses competing with pop assembly (which would still be worse, mind, because of the above, but could be a fair trade for potentially great shroud bonuses). It has production bonuses competing with slightly smaller production bonuses and pop assembly.

This means that, generously, psionics with all shroud bonuses unlocked might be on par with other ascensions - except they don't have a mutually parasitic relationship with spiritualist, and are guaranteed to get all of their bonuses after one project and the tradition itself. In order for psionic to get the full bonuses necessary to maybe be on par with the other ascensions you need the same number of projects, a Holy Covenant at level 5 (and therefore almost always the diplomacy tree in addition to the psionic tree), to fish for stuff from the shroud for literal decades worth of game time, get or buy zro, and to gain dark matter reactors. Oh, and the tech for psionics itself is rare with a specially rare specialty trait. Don't try to tell me psionics is really strong if your argument is going to make it clear you read off the wiki what psionics can give you but obviously have never actually tried it to compare it to literally any other ascension.

Ironically, your thinking is entirely one dimensional - psionics CAN have these bonuses, therefore it does and every single peripheral loss MUST be trivial because you've played other ascensions and those had trivial downsides. Guess what: they're not. Don't condescend if you can't back it up with knowledge instead of "poop explosion" and how psionics isn't the "worse of the 3 ascensions." Here's a hint: there are four ascensions. This is why I'm not taking you seriously. Are you playing on a previous version and literally unaware of the downsides or something? Is that why you think there are three ascensions? Do you actually literally have no idea what you're talking about or are you just incapable of assessing all (four) ascensions and seeing that they all have comparable upsides except only psionics has downsides compared to no ascension at all?
I mean, they do have those bonuses, post 3.8.

The discussion was mostly about 3.7.4, so that doesn't change what was correct/incorrect at that point, but it seems like psionics got the insane buffs to output that they deserved.

After having reflected a bit: I suspect it's not a coincidence that the two ascensions that kill your leaders at random got big buffs from high level leaders. Risk-reward. Psionics get +70% to +150% job output from having perfect councilors, synths get +25% output and ~+50% assembly from having perfect governors. Genetic and cybernetic get not ascension specific traits, probably because their leaders have enormous lifespans and no random death effects.
 
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