With Cross, Quill and Sword IV: It Came From the Ocean Floor!

[HolisticGod]

Tom,

It's not, as far as I can tell.

The idea was to make it more difficult to convert, but I don't see why the OE would even bother with it. Maybe, given that Persia and Venice are both being played, it's necessary. We'll see.

 

[unmerged(10269)]

Hmmm, I thought one of the ideas behind the scenario was to encourage MORE Ottoman participation in Europe, (the Balkans and Russia) where they historically made great advances--doesn't look like this setup is likely to do that. No Ottomans at the gates of Vienna in this scenario.

 

[unmerged(10894)]

Says who!?

No I agree looking at it, but there are a few snags. For example, say overlapping cultures were given a lot to promote warfare. In that case the OE should have Slavonic, Magyar, Kurdish, Romanian, Altai etc. It soon gets out of hand using that agrument. So I've been trying alternate ways such as cutting back on cultures, but making those cultures overall more appealing with higher manpower, base tax or other things instead. However I haven't gone far enough with the balkans I think.

 

[HolisticGod]

Boc,

Replied to your proposal. Sorry. I was in a game.

Slavonic is probably fine. At least in this game. I do think you should have Kurdish, though, as should Persia. And you should also give it to me in ToT.

 

[Taelyn]

Editing

HG,

I edited in the leaders for the game, and it worked fine, so it looks like its good. The only problem is that Bocaj's scenario doesn't have all the historicalleader tables in it. I have to load the game, resave it, and then edit the save game, since only the save game has the leaders incorporated. This will mean the final scenario file will be much larger than Bocaj's. Also, the random leader names table doesn't have names for every player nation (notably mine, Genoa). I need to either find a list of random leader names for all countries (anyone know of one from the modder forum?). Otherwise its all good, I think it meets all the specs that you wanted. I forgot my laptop at home today, so I won't be able to work on anything or have ICQ until tomorrow.

As for the military tradition, I guess we'll give it a try, I still think its a bad idea, but we'll see.

As for cultures. Are we sure that we want the OE to have slavonic when Austria doesn't have it? If memory serves, only Venice has Slavonic, so giving it to the Ottomans garuntees their dominance over southeastern Europe since their main land power competition (Poland, Austria) does not have Slavonic. I guess Genoa could get French, but it wouldn't matter, Genoa will never be able to keep a hold on French lands. Anyway, if Genoa gets French, Burgundy will have to get it too. I still think Genoa should get Maltese.

EU2 definitely has a flawed system. It doesn't at all represent the colonization of Holland, Portugal, Genoa, and Venice. I mean, technically, Genoa should still have trading posts throughout the Mediterranean and the Middle East, as should Venice, but that isn't very realistic, because they didn't represent land held, just an outpost. And of course, Venice, and Genoa should have trade agreements with the Arabic and Persian nations, but given the heavy penalty you take for trade agreements, there's no way I want them. Kaffa and Kerch represent only a small part of Genoa's attempts to control the Black Sea (Venice's holdings in the Western Med are much more generous, defensible, and useful).

Bah, rambling again. Should be a fun game this week. Do you have the final modded version of the game yet?

 

[arcorelli]

As for cultures. Are we sure that we want the OE to have slavonic when Austria doesn't have it? If memory serves, only Venice has Slavonic, so giving it to the Ottomans garuntees their dominance over southeastern Europe since their main land power competition (Poland, Austria) does not have Slavonic. I guess Genoa could get French, but it wouldn't matter, Genoa will never be able to keep a hold on French lands. Anyway, if Genoa gets French, Burgundy will have to get it too. I still think Genoa should get Maltese.

OE and Austria should get Slavonic, to give incentives for wars in the Balkans. And Burgundy should get french too.

(And I still forgot to send the damn portuguese diplomats before game).

 

[unmerged(1631)]

OE and Austria should get Slavonic, to give incentives for wars in the Balkans. And Burgundy should get french too.

(And I still forgot to send the damn portuguese diplomats before game).

I agree to both of those changes.

I guess I should get the Spanish diplomats out too eh?

Taelyn, if you need names for leaders you should dl the scenario for the Wed night EU game and "borrow" a few of Shigure's names for the Italians

 

[unmerged(10269)]

Both Austria and Ottomans should get Slavonic or neither of them. My preference is for both to get them. I think it is a serious mistake to give only one of these Slavonic and not the other one.

Kurds are related to Iranians, and Kurdish is an Iranian language. I don't think that the Ottomans should have Kurdish as a culture any more than Persia should have Arabic. The Ottomans never obtained any major effective longterm control over Kurdish areas, any more than the Persians held effective longterm control over any of the bordering Arabic areas-they both held some degree of control over such areas, but not very effectively. in short, I don't think that either nation should have these opposing cultures, but if one gets one the other should get "the other"--i.e., if you are going to give the Ottomans Kurdish culture, then give the Persians Arabic culture.(the kicker is that both the Black Sheep and the White Sheep, at least in its leadership or "aristocracy" were mainly Turkomans-a Turkic-speaking people)

I'll pass on an opinion as to whether Burgundy should get French culture, although I am inclined to think that it should--that is not an opinion, though, mind.

 

[Count Drew]

Definitely a battleground state for the Balkans instead of some longterm deal, if you hand over Slavonic to the competeing nations. Venice and Austria will easily work together then along with Spain. OE and France on the other end. Possibly the interference of Burgundy with French Culture.. Poland-BB also for their little squabbles of Germanic "pole position"

I think that Russia should get Ruthenian, not sure if the current edit allows it although it would give more reason for Poland-Litho and Russia to fight. Otherwise that's a lot of poor low MP territory. Conversely Lithuanian is fine too

 

[HolisticGod]

Tom,

The OE gets Kurdish the same way the Persians get Kurdish. You ought to ask a Kurd how closely related he or she is to the Iranians.

Giving Persia Arabic would be like giving the OE Persian.

Taelyn,

Good deal. I'll have the final scenario and leader formula to you as soon as Bocaj gets it to me.

Dave, Arco,

I'm leaning toward neither.

But I think I'll let Bocaj make that determination. He knows the scenario much better than I do.

 

[Count Drew]

Heh are the Kurds Shi'ite? or Sunni. I think their hate is slightly less for the Persians than it is for the Arabs. I think now we're still seeing the indifference. Kurdistan-Sunni Iraq-Shi'ite Iraq... 3 States, no hassle, Cyprus like split up.. 1/3rd oil per Minority ?

As far Red Russia in our current game. We will go bloodlessly along if Lithuanian and the Caucasus Mountains are given to our Tsarist Regime. We have no desires on anything else, so we'll just settle in our neighbors. hand that over immediately

 

[unmerged(10269)]

The modern day political aspirations of the Kurds have little to do with their allegiance and temperment during the relevant time periods. Giving the Persians Turkish culture would be like giving the Ottomans Persian culture--that would be the correct analogy.

In any event, I guess we will leave that to Bocaj to decide, as he is creating the scenario, so I will rely on his sense of history and game balance in deciding the Ottomans appropriate cultural reach, as well as that of the Persians.

About half of the ethnic Persian provinces are presently in the hands of another human player, so the Black Sheep will have an interesting time of it regardless.

EDIT: I may not be as semi-blessed as China,(with the odd revolt or stability problem ) but as least I am not as screwed as Genoa.

 

[HolisticGod]

Drew,

Predominately Sunni. There is a Shiite minority and a Christian minority.

Tom,

No, Arabic-Persian is the correct analogy. Arabic is the more important of the two, by far. So there you go. If you want to have Arabic, we'll give the OE Persian.

And, heh, semi-blessed... Well, the Middle Kingdom does have its peculiar advantages over Persia and the Timurids. No question about that.

 

[HolisticGod]

All,

I'm going to go ahead and let folks decide their own leader setup, except explorers-conquistadors. You need to get back to me in the next twenty-four hours, though, so Taelyn can add the tables and we're set to go well in advance of the session.

Twenty Leaders
France
Austria

Twenty-five Leaders
England
Spain
Sweden
The Ottoman Empire
Russia
Poland
Holland

Thirty Leaders
Brandenburg
Mughals

Thirty-five Leaders
Persia
Venice
Portugal
Denmark

Forty-five Leaders
Genoa
China

 

[unmerged(17563)]

I would like 15 generals and 10 admirals please

 

[Elijah]

All you old-school crew...Hi Again! I got the game reinstalled, now, if I can remember how to play this game I'll be ok...

 

[arcorelli]

Thirty-five Leaders
Portugal

Twenty five admirals, ten generals.

 

[King John]

Brand will take 15 generals and 15 admirals .

 

[unmerged(10269)]

Tom,

No, Arabic-Persian is the correct analogy. Arabic is the more important of the two, by far. So there you go. If you want to have Arabic, we'll give the OE Persian.

All generals for Persia. Even assuming I can avoid a complete death-spiral with the Timurids, going eastward is likely to be pointless with an unrestrained China, so going westward may be my best bet. I'll think about it and let you know about getting Arabic culture, thanks.

 

[Count Drew]

Drew,

Predominately Sunni. There is a Shiite minority and a Christian minority.

Tom,

No, Arabic-Persian is the correct analogy. Arabic is the more important of the two, by far. So there you go. If you want to have Arabic, we'll give the OE Persian.

And, heh, semi-blessed... Well, the Middle Kingdom does have its peculiar advantages over Persia and the Timurids. No question about that.

Interesting! Christians still alive in the Middle East! Plus a mixed Kurdistan


I will swap cultures with Poland if Persia wants to with OE!

Plus I want all Land Generals! Not 1 admiral