With Cross, Quill and Sword IV: It Came From the Ocean Floor!

[HolisticGod]

TPC,

Don't confuse us with the facts!

I think Taelyn's second proposal is the one we should apply. It's historical, first of all, for all non-Italian/non-Baltic states, with negligible exceptions, to operate with a mercantile economy. Secondly, it goes the longest and least unbalancing way toward giving Venice and Genoa (and Denmark, I suggest) an edge. Starting in 1453, I don't think it's necessary for Portugal because the Portuguese explorers are going to make quick work of the world's COTs.

The problem of map stealing is the greatest obstacle to giving Venice and Genoa knowledge of the Silk Road. Certainly, China and Malacca are out of the question. What we might do instead is remove knowledge of Isfahan and Daghestan (this might be moved back to Astrakahn, by the way) from all the Europeans, give both countries signfiicant starting treasuries and more factories. Of course, neighbor bonus comes into play whenever you apply tech as a solution.

But that's where I stand right now.

Of course, the mercantilism and map knowledge editing, which will be very tedious and time-consuming, must be done by the parties benefiting. I certainly don't want to do it and I doubt seriously Bocaj does either.

 

[HolisticGod]

All,

Another idea is to give Venice more knowledge of the silk road as it can protect its capital and balance this out somehow for the Genovese.

 

[Taelyn]

Mercantilism

Looking at it, I can change the mercantilisms to 10 in...10 minutes tops. If Bocaj or you, HG, can send me the latest 1453 version, I'll do it in a few hours and get it back to you (well, actually I can't get it back to you until tomorrow evening maybe, one of my co-workers just dropped a load of his work on me to do for him). Genoa and Venice can both protect their capitals if they have a fleet and some decent fortifications, at least in the short run. Removing knowledge of Istafan and Astrakan (or whatever) from the other Europeans (except Muscowy and Ottomans I guess) would I suppose work. Not giving Genoa and Venice the maps of India is garunteed to force the sacking of Lisbon multiple times. If that's what you want, go ahead, but I hope Portugal doesn't mind getting ravaged over and over and over (since Genoa and Venice basically can't explore, probably for decades after the Iberians).

And boy did tpc throw the book at us.

Edit: And whoever's portugal, ask Drake if I'm any good at surprise attacks.

 

[admiral drake]

Looking at it, I can change the mercantilisms to 10 in...10 minutes tops. If Bocaj or you, HG, can send me the latest 1453 version, I'll do it in a few hours and get it back to you (well, actually I can't get it back to you until tomorrow evening maybe, one of my co-workers just dropped a load of his work on me to do for him). Genoa and Venice can both protect their capitals if they have a fleet and some decent fortifications, at least in the short run. Removing knowledge of Istafan and Astrakan (or whatever) from the other Europeans (except Muscowy and Ottomans I guess) would I suppose work. Not giving Genoa and Venice the maps of India is garunteed to force the sacking of Lisbon multiple times. If that's what you want, go ahead, but I hope Portugal doesn't mind getting ravaged over and over and over (since Genoa and Venice basically can't explore, probably for decades after the Iberians).

And boy did tpc throw the book at us.

Edit: And whoever's portugal, ask Drake if I'm any good at surprise attacks.

don't remind me at that o

 

[unmerged(10894)]

Excuse my ignorance, but why would setting merc at 10 stop the AI?

 

[arcorelli]

Genoa and Venice can both protect their capitals if they have a fleet and some decent fortifications, at least in the short run. (...) If that's what you want, go ahead, but I hope Portugal doesn't mind getting ravaged over and over and over (since Genoa and Venice basically can't explore, probably for decades after the Iberians).

Edit: And whoever's portugal, ask Drake if I'm any good at surprise attacks.

Well, Genoa is as vulnerable as Portugal after all. Any resource that is available to Genoa to protect their capitol is available to Portugal. With one difference, if we grant Genoa/ Venice maps, then at the start they got valuable map knowledge, Portugal don't (is only after their first explorer has made their work than Portugal can get COT knowledge).

The only exception is Venice (since unless you defeat the venetian fleet not a single soldier can be in Veneto). So I guess map knowledge can safely be grantesd to Venice

 

[HolisticGod]

Taelyn,

We're going with Bocaj's latest version anyway. When it's done, I'll make my changes and then forward to you. You can do the mercantalism/exploration thing, as far as the group decides and randomize the leaders (something else that needs to be discussed).

I think it's pretty clear AoI is unfeasible. At least for a north American game, where subs aren't plentiful. The experience the Tuesday Game had last night is very strong evidence against.

So we're going with Bocaj's 1453. However, the unlimited time patch will be run and I'll randomly select an ending date between 1820 and 1920. After 1820, random leaders of all stat levels will be created seperately. I'll keep the end-date secret from everyone.

There's no way of keeping it secret from myself, obviously, as someone has to stop the game. But I won't look until 1820.

Sound good?

We now need to discuss rules and edits. Some of this has already started, but I want the group as a whole to look over the scenario and weigh in. We have a few weeks to work this, so let's work it right.

 

[HolisticGod]

All,

Also, I'd like to thank Hive for his offers of support and congratulate him on an excellent scenario. Perhaps a smaller European game will adopt it should his own go well. I agree that we need to get it spread around the community and that means taking a plunge.

However, taking a plunge with sixteen players is something else entirely.

Now, we have the player assignments, the group... Whole nine yards. I'm going to speak with Duma, but otherwise we're settled. Let's do a roll call. See who's here. And get down to the grubby business of balance and rules.

 

[unmerged(10894)]

I'm here, although I'm going to be away for the next three days. Even though I'm only part way through the version and haven't written any of the changes down, I'm going to leave my latest copy of the 1453 scenario for anyone to download in the download forum (link in sig there).

 

[Gobi]

I'm willing to sub for you guys if necessary. Have a few years of Sp under my belt and would like to get into MP. I'd prefer to start subbing minor players like Denmark and Venice to get a feel for the game. My ICQ is in my sig.

 

[Hive]

I think it's pretty clear AoI is unfeasible. At least for a north American game, where subs aren't plentiful. The experience the Tuesday Game had last night is very strong evidence against.

Pfft. I disagree, but eh... it's your game.

So we're going with Bocaj's 1453. However, the unlimited time patch will be run and I'll randomly select an ending date between 1820 and 1920. After 1820, random leaders of all stat levels will be created seperately. I'll keep the end-date secret from everyone.

So in other words, you want to play past 1820 with no more monarchs, no historical leaders (only random) and no historical events? Why?

 

[unmerged(17563)]

HG I'm kinda with Hive whats the point in extending the game beyond 1820?

We will have massive inflation problems from reaching tech limits, we will have no events and it will seem like a let down after Napoleon...

Oh i check in

 

[Hive]

We will have massive inflation problems from reaching tech limits, we will have no events and it will seem like a let down after Napoleon...

Indeed. I totally forgot that the vanilla tech levels aren't adjusted to playing past 1820. You'll all mint like insane, and rack up high inflation. What's the point in that?

 

[arcorelli]

Indeed. I totally forgot that the vanilla tech levels aren't adjusted to playing past 1820. You'll all mint like insane, and rack up high inflation. What's the point in that?

Some people like 100 years of Napoleonic Warfare (well and the fact that you can't play the Nappy years with total disregard for consequences)

 

[Taelyn]

Replies

A few replies:

Bocaj: Mercantilism 10 will give the AI less traders to send. That's the reason behind it. Giving all non-trading nations this would be historical and help the early trade powers out. Once most of the AI gets annexed, it won't be an issue anymore.

Genoa and Venice: Can someone explain to me how Venice is any better protected than Genoa? Both have one sea zone that they can be reached from. I think (though I'm not sure) that both Genoa and Venice will have sizable fleets at the start.

Ending date: HG, I'll either need to know the ending date for the leaders, or I can generate leaders up to 1920, but that means that countries may have random leaders added that won't be used. I guess that's not too big of a problem really.
And, like LE says, how are we going to stop from having to mint continuously? In CQS II a few countries were minting continuously by the end because all their techs were done.

 

[Hive]

Genoa and Venice: Can someone explain to me how Venice is any better protected than Genoa? Both have one sea zone that they can be reached from. I think (though I'm not sure) that both Genoa and Venice will have sizable fleets at the start.

You can't reach Veneto from land if Venice is using a fleet to block, but you can always reach Liguria from land...

Ending date: HG, I'll either need to know the ending date for the leaders, or I can generate leaders up to 1920, but that means that countries may have random leaders added that won't be used. I guess that's not too big of a problem really.

You could also generate random leaders before each session. That way, people won't know when an uber leader is coming along. It's the way I do it when I use random leaders for games.

 

[arcorelli]

Genoa and Venice: Can someone explain to me how Venice is any better protected than Genoa? Both have one sea zone that they can be reached from. I think (though I'm not sure) that both Genoa and Venice will have sizable fleets at the start.

AFAIK, you can enter Genoa from land without problems (well apart of defeating the genoan army). You can't enter Veneto from neighbouring land if the venetian fleet is in the seazone.

In other words, for example a french army can siege Genoa without defeating the genovese fleet first; but an austrian army can't siege Veneto if the venetian fleet is not defeated first (or the venetian fleet is so kind that the venetian fleet is in other seazone).

 

[Taelyn]

Venice

Are you sure about that Arc? I played a SP game as the pope, and without a fleet (the Venetian fleet was guarding its port), I had no trouble sacking Venice, and conquering the rest of mainland Venice. I know people talked about having Venice protected by a fleet, but that wasn't ever implemented as far as I know.

 

[Hive]

Are you sure about that Arc? I played a SP game as the pope, and without a fleet (the Venetian fleet was guarding its port), I had no trouble sacking Venice, and conquering the rest of mainland Venice. I know people talked about having Venice protected by a fleet, but that wasn't ever implemented as far as I know.

Oh it's implemented allright. You sure you have latest beta?

 

[Taelyn]

Beta

Yep, I have the latest beta. That's rather odd then. Hmm. I'll have to test it again later.