Wishlist of fixes to internal mechanics

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Michael Gladius

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Feb 18, 2019
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Internal mechanics are important for realistic gameplay, and can fix a lot of problems without necessarily making the UI more complex. Below is a wishlist of fixes/upgrades to the game’s internal mechanics, in alphabetic order:



Air Warfare

1.1 Fighters should have an “escort” mission. This will allow airborne drops and atomic strikes to be made easier without overhauling the entire strategic bombing/air superiority mechanics.



Combat

2.1 Introduce Artillery Superiority. Air superiority is a good mechanic, but artillery’s indirect fire capabilities should also be included as an anti-ORG method. Failing to include this makes artillery unrealistically powerless, while adding it will make artillery more useful without changing/increasing existing stats.

2.2 Introduce more combat toggle features. Toggle features make gameplay more dynamic, especially when used to gain a sudden tactical advantage.

2.3 Regimental structure should dictate how combat width is split. When the game was first made, 40-width infantry divisions were OP because the entire weight of the division was used all at once, like a phalanx. The devs have since introduced splitting damage, but this should follow regimental compositions. Doing this will allow divisions to split into widths that align with specific terrain types, even if the overall width does not align. With 5 regiments per division, this means a player could customize his division for up to 5 different widths!

2.4 Self-Propelled Artillery, Tank Destroyers, SPAA, and heavy/super-heavy tanks should be available as support companies. These would allow squishy divisions to gain some armor upgrades on a shoestring budget. Support companies are smaller than regular battalions, so France in 1940 can deploy their few heavy tanks in penny packets among multiple divisions, and fuel-starved Germany in 1945 can strengthen their infantry divisions without requiring lots of tank IC and fuel.

2.5 Soft Attack should degrade entrenchment, hard attack should degrade land/coastal forts. Machine guns and mortars have little effect on concrete bunkers, but armor-piercing munitions would. Tank destroyers IRL spent more time knocking out bunkers than actually fighting tanks.

2.6 Terrain and tactics change combat width. Right now, combat width is rigid and inflexible, which causes issues for historical division size/composition, but allowing tactics & terrain to act as multipliers on combat width would make historical division designs more viable. Mountains have the habit of canalizing the movement of tanks/motor/mech IRL, while human waves tend to be on broad fronts.

2.7 Units in low supply should not attack or fight unless command power operations like “Aggressive Assault,” “Probing Attack,” or “Last Stand” are activated. The gameplay needs to balance between units being held back by low supply and fighting on in spite of it, so requiring command power to be used for the latter would help achieve this balance and prevent the Germans from conquering Russia, or Italy conquering Egypt, too quickly.

2.8 Urban and amphibious warfare need to be fixed. Both are single-province battles that IRL were more complicated than they are portrayed in-game. Instead of creating more provinces, fixing the mechanics will make them more meaningful.



Game AI

3.1 AI in peacetime should prioritize garrisoning victory points and forts. Right now, the AI has every reason to fill every frontline, and this encourages division spam. Changing this behavior in peacetime will reduce demand for divisions.

3.2 AI should prioritize building supply depots over land/coastal forts. Towards the end-game, AI will run out of things to build and so will start spamming out forts because they’re cheap, instead of improving their supply. The AI should be programmed to prioritize supply over forts by default.



Naval

4.1 Naval repairs should scale to the level of the seaport. Level 1 seaports should not be able to repair ships with 6% health/94% damage.

4.2 Add in a “Naval preparatory bombardment” operation. There is currently no way to soften up an island/shoreline’s defenses before launching a naval invasion, but such softening operations occurred frequently and could last a month. Mechanically, it’d resemble strategic bombing with battleships.

4.3 Introduce a “blockade” mission for navies.

4.4 Allow screen ships to be lend-leased.



Production & Manpower

5.1 Researching new levels of equipment should reduce the base cost of obsolete models. Most nations IRL put more effort into making existing equipment cheaper than they did developing more expensive production methods.

5.2 Add a reserves mechanic. This can either be in the recruitment tab or a law, but there needs to be a way to bottleneck and dynamically cap the number of units on the map, to prevent division spam.

5.3 Add an alert for “excess imports.”



Resistance

6.1 If resistance attacks fail, and there is no external sponsor, then resistance levels go down. Resistance fighters cannot repeatedly fail attacks without any consequences whatsoever. The guerrillas will take casualties, they lose their street cred, and most garrisons IRL did not get mowed down and slaughtered every month by the hundreds like clockwork. If the resistance is being supported from outside, this mechanic can be overridden.



Supply

7.1 Airfields should have the same supply/motorization toggle features as seaports and supply depots. It’s odd that we have air resupply, but can’t give an airfield truck or horse-drawn logistics. Full integration would make air resupply more viable and intuitive.

7.2 Attrition changes based on movement and stances. Units standing still do not consume supplies as much as units on the move, and cautious plans are more thrifty than reckless ones. This mechanic would increase player control by creating toggle-able settings.

7.3 Dismounted units should have logarithmic penalties to supply, while mobile/mechanized should have exponential penalties. Smaller numbers of mobile units should have little difficulty beating dismounted infantry in a sustained fight, as this is more realistic and will discourage spamming dismounted divisions.

7.4 Islands and fleets use supply convoys. If a Japan wants to build up a small Pacific island’s state AA then that should require convoys to abstract for shipping the concrete and heavy guns, rather than growing them locally like crops.

7.5 Mixing equipment should have logarithmic penalties. Right now, capturing equipment isn’t as problematic was it was IRL, since equipment works like a fire-and-toss-aside panzerfaust. By having logarithmic penalties, players will be discouraged from mixing equipment willy-nilly.

7.6 Scale airborne and amphibious operation caps to battalions, not divisions. Limiting it to 10 divisions means that players are incentivized to create massive corps-sized divisions for these operations, rather than realistic-sized ones.

7.7 Scale attrition to battalions, rather than a flat rate. The flat rate means that cramming extra divisions into a defensive line won’t hurt the defenders’ ability to fight any worse than it already is, but still allows them to outlast the attacker by virtue of having too many bodies in the way before the attacker runs out of ORG. Scaling by battalions will ensure the more historical forces run out of ORG last.

7.8 Scale supply trucks at supply depots to battalions. Currently a supply depot uses 80 trucks at the maximum and can supply far more frontline units than is realistic. By scaling to battalions, clogging front lines can be ameliorated and mechanically discouraged.

7.9 Strategic movement should be based on supply depots. Strategic movement gives a bunch of bonuses that turn dismounted infantry into motorized infantry, and has no fuel costs, so requiring it to pass through both rail and supply depot provinces will be more realistic and require the AI to build up its supply network more than currently happens.

7.10 Supply Depots should get construction bonuses from Victory Locations and Urban Provinces. Supply Depots are more expensive than synthetic refineries, which is necessary to prevent spamming, but this also discourages the AI from improving their supply situation because the raw numbers aren’t advantageous. Offering 10% construction bonuses for each victory point (i.e., 5 victory points would give a 50% bonus while 15 victory points would give a 150% bonus) and a 20% bonus for urban provinces (which would all stack with existing construction bonuses) would mean that the AI now has a positive incentive to build them in logical/realistic places.





Thoughts? Counter-proposals? Be specific! :)
 
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Not replying to every point because I don't want to be here all night, and a lot of them just involve modeling things much more in-depth than is ever realistically going to happen or would be fun for the vast majority of players. Just play BICE if you want a million penalties and to be forced to do everything super slowly and methodically with 800 different equipment production lines.

Not sure why you think encouraging cheesing the AI with space marines even more is a good idea. Just put a tank battalion in your division if you want the stats.

2.5 Soft Attack should degrade entrenchment, hard attack should degrade land/coastal forts. Machine guns and mortars have little effect on concrete bunkers, but armor-piercing munitions would. Tank destroyers IRL spent more time knocking out bunkers than actually fighting tanks.
But much if not most of your soft attack (in a high soft attack division) comes from artillery, which can definitely destroy fortifications. Not to mention "infantry equipment" covers things like mortars and small explosives.

Don't tactics change like every 12 hours or something? You'd just have divisions constantly popping in and out of combat, and possibly not even getting in without high initiative/base reinforcement rate. This is already done with a couple tactics and it really doesn't feel that impactful.

I think this is already sufficiently achieved by the massive attack and breakthrough penalties from minimum supply status.

2.8 Urban and amphibious warfare need to be fixed. Both are single-province battles that IRL were more complicated than they are portrayed in-game. Instead of creating more provinces, fixing the mechanics will make them more meaningful.
There's just nothing in the way the game works that supports anything more in-depth for this. I don't think tiny unclickable provinces or making Moscow 150km across is a good solution at all. This is not a game about navigating the intricacies of urban warfare or planning an opposed amphibious assault, it's about building equipment and moving divisions and your commanders do that kind of stuff entirely autonomously aside from you assigning some traits that encourage their choice of tactics.

3.2 AI should prioritize building supply depots over land/coastal forts. Towards the end-game, AI will run out of things to build and so will start spamming out forts because they’re cheap, instead of improving their supply. The AI should be programmed to prioritize supply over forts by default.
Didn't know this was a thing, but certainly sounds like a good idea.

6.1 If resistance attacks fail, and there is no external sponsor, then resistance levels go down. Resistance fighters cannot repeatedly fail attacks without any consequences whatsoever. The guerrillas will take casualties, they lose their street cred, and most garrisons IRL did not get mowed down and slaughtered every month by the hundreds like clockwork. If the resistance is being supported from outside, this mechanic can be overridden.
I sort of like the idea that you can set your your garrison to sort of engage in combat with the partisans in order to reduce the resistance. In theory I guess this is sort of attempted to be modeled with the harsher laws, but if you switch off of them you lose the suppression benefits, there's no lasting effect, and it's mandatory to deploy a bunch more troops there (also it will still work with something like a one battalion cavalry template instead of an actual combat division). Might be hard to balance though.
 
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There's just nothing in the way the game works that supports anything more in-depth for this. I don't think tiny unclickable provinces or making Moscow 150km across is a good solution at all. This is not a game about navigating the intricacies of urban warfare or planning an opposed amphibious assault, it's about building equipment and moving divisions and your commanders do that kind of stuff entirely autonomously aside from you assigning some traits that encourage their choice of tactics.
I will contest this

River battles already use different battle phases and an entirely different set of tactics

It would be decently easy to make amphibious and urban battles have similar facets. Modders could probably add this one with a only modicum of hassle (I don't know how river combats are handled codewise). This would give them a different feel without requiring an entirely reworked combat screen or map

If they were to add a reworked combat screen, having a "ground taken" type monitor where you can actually measure your units progress through the tile (without making the tile bigger) that gives various bonuses or penalties based on various things like government, stats, spirits, etc. would be an interesting mechanic, and not be that much more mechanically intensive
 
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If they were to add a reworked combat screen, having a "ground taken" type monitor where you can actually measure your units progress through the tile (without making the tile bigger) that gives various bonuses or penalties based on various things like government, stats, spirits, etc. would be an interesting mechanic, and not be that much more mechanically intensive
That's a pretty interesting idea, altho tbh at that point it seems like it should apply to all terrain types and be used to partially/fully negate penalties (or maybe it just equalizes penalties where both get the attack malus since now the "attacker" is also firmly in terrain that makes it hard to counterattack against them).
 
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That's a pretty interesting idea, altho tbh at that point it seems like it should apply to all terrain types and be used to partially/fully negate penalties (or maybe it just equalizes penalties where both get the attack malus since now the "attacker" is also firmly in terrain that makes it hard to counterattack against them).
I had been thinking of ways to do that, and I really like this one

To give Urban and Amphibious a bit of an extra kick, perhaps most bars start somewhere in the middle (with abilities like probing attack making the bar decrease slower) with the penalties possibly growing greater as counter-attacks push you further out of your original positions. While Amphi and Urban start all the way at the bottom to represent both how block-to-block fighting Urban warfare can be, and Amphibious starting at the beaches and possibly being pushed back into the sea

And in this regard, if the bar ever gets to 0 on either side, that side starts taking extra damage as their main positions are basically overrun by this point
 
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Good ideas. I want to add that I can't feel the difference of urban combat from others right now and would be glad if that changed anyhow.
Not all, but certain urban tiles may have special modifiers or something to make combat take way longer than it does now.

An example, the period and time it took for the biggest in WW2 to conclude:
23 August 1942 – 2 February 1943
(5 months, 1 week and 3 days)
 
I do think giving modifiers to "special" tiles could be cool. Or maybe to make it more flexible, the more VPs a tile is worth, the harder it is to take. To help allow for using cities as both morale rallying points and literal fortresses.
 
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Not replying to every point because I don't want to be here all night, and a lot of them just involve modeling things much more in-depth than is ever realistically going to happen or would be fun for the vast majority of players. Just play BICE if you want a million penalties and to be forced to do everything super slowly and methodically with 800 different equipment production lines.

BICE doesn't change the internal mechanics- it bolts on a thousand things on top of the existing mechanics. Hence why I'm proposing the opposite tack.


Not sure why you think encouraging cheesing the AI with space marines even more is a good idea. Just put a tank battalion in your division if you want the stats.

There are two ways to deploy tanks: either in big blocks or in penny packets. The line battalion method you mention abstracts the former. My proposal to add armored support companies will abstract for the latter. The French, Italians, and Germans all used the latter method at various points during the war.


But much if not most of your soft attack (in a high soft attack division) comes from artillery, which can definitely destroy fortifications. Not to mention "infantry equipment" covers things like mortars and small explosives.

Maginot-style concrete bunkers are specifically designed to repel regular artillery fire, as well as mortars. Open-topped dirt trenchworks are not, and we have engineer support companies to abstract for the small explosives. Tank destroyers were often used to put rounds through a concrete vision slit because they could do it, and SPGs are better-protected than towed artillery when in direct-fire mode.


Don't tactics change like every 12 hours or something? You'd just have divisions constantly popping in and out of combat, and possibly not even getting in without high initiative/base reinforcement rate. This is already done with a couple tactics and it really doesn't feel that impactful.

If it doesn't feel impactful, then my method will make it more impactful.


I think this is already sufficiently achieved by the massive attack and breakthrough penalties from minimum supply status.

It's still not sufficient, since it doesn't prevent German or Italian dismounted troops from marching absurdly far without being forced to halt whether they like it or not. Having them able to do this by default (instead of paying a command power cost every time) is inferior to a system with hard brakes.
 
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Hi.

Good op and nice thread so far.

I want to mention that some restrictions on lend-lease really should be implemented. The way it works now is that any facist and communist nation will lend lease above 40 relations (not so hard to get usually). Also a democratic France can be asked quite early (30% world tension asfair) and basically any major is going to give away a lot of stuff.

By asking multiple nations at once very big stockpiles of material (and fuel) can be built up quick. That's somewhat fine I guess. There is after all some PP cost associated. The real problem is you can ask again and again. I don't really wanna say to much about gamey subjects, yet let's take for example air. Make an air wing with plane limit 1000 and the game will read it as a plane shortage and have no hesitation about lend leasing repeatedly. That's highly questionable game design. There should be limits to what can be received over time or additional drawbacks to doing this.
 
  • UI accuracy of information - stop giving wrong % (example: equipment capture ratio). Fix advisers that literally do nothing, despite claiming to do something. Fix focuses with description "event happens". Stop focuses from lying about their consequences.
  • Battle planner
  • Let us actually queue movement orders consistently
  • Stop attacking outside of front lines drawn unless manually ordered
  • Stop attacking w/o an active attack order, at all. Moving 6+ tiles deep into enemy territory should not be a "green arrow" action.
  • War participation score to reflect actions that contribute to winning wars at least passably
Until the game works decently, more granular options and rules are nonsensical. The current ones don't work. Doing more nuance won't make it better.
 
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Stop attacking w/o an active attack order, at all. Moving 6+ tiles deep into enemy territory should not be a "green arrow" action.
AFAIK this only happens when you have the general set to aggressive stance and "active" despite having no battleplan. I thnk this is quite nice since when pushing thru a country you can end up with a bunch of new frontlines popping up around encirclements or pockets from splitting borders, but I still might want my armies to press the offensive on all fronts without having to constantly draw new arrows.
War participation score to reflect actions that contribute to winning wars at least passably
Presumably this is coming along with the peace deal rework... I hope...
 
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No please dont write these kind of lists, paradox needs to focus on fixing major bugs in existing features not add more complexity at this point. Also, Im sorry your first AI points is completely wrong and based on wrong assumptions on how it works.
 
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I'd like to add:

Since Allied, Comintern and even a growing number of minor countries got boosters to espionage and spy slots, the Axis nations shouldn't be left out of that any longer.

The game boasts to offer alternate history and even stretches to the fantasy realm - why should Axis powers be denied to invest more into the espionage portion of the game?! They are as bland as they were before LaR.
 
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No please dont write these kind of lists, paradox needs to focus on fixing major bugs in existing features not add more complexity at this point. Also, Im sorry your first AI points is completely wrong and based on wrong assumptions on how it works.

Bug fixes are an ongoing process, so anything I'd add would be redundant.

Nor is this "more complexity," unless streamlining counts.


Whilst there are both good and terrible ideas in there most of those are hardly fixes and just more feature bloat.

Could you be more specific? Just saying "more feature bloat" isn't constructive criticism- it's repetitive and unimaginative.

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You need to work on your thread naming. There are no fixes in your list. None at all.

Your whole list seems to be things that add realism to the game. I have no clue what to call such things, but fixes they are not.

Many of them are difficult to implement and test, for dubious gain. I would not want to implement them, and I doubt the good programmers at Paradox would either.
 
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You need to work on your thread naming. There are no fixes in your list. None at all.

Your whole list seems to be things that add realism to the game. I have no clue what to call such things, but fixes they are not.

Many of them are difficult to implement and test, for dubious gain. I would not want to implement them, and I doubt the good programmers at Paradox would either.

Polishing/overhauling unrealistic, one-dimensional mechanics doesn't count as "fixes"? Or producing realistic mechanics in a historical game? That sounds like splitting hairs rather than constructive criticism.

Also, is it easier to make a few mechanical fixes or to create a ton of statistically-complex items on top of everything? You know, the kind that get lengthy threads on how the statistics make some things OP and others useless?
 
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Polishing/overhauling unrealistic, one-dimensional mechanics doesn't count as "fixes"? Or producing realistic mechanics in a historical game? That sounds like splitting hairs rather than constructive criticism.

Also, is it easier to make a few mechanical fixes or to create a ton of statistically-complex items on top of everything? You know, the kind that get lengthy threads on how the statistics make some things OP and others useless?
The term fixes when it comes to games goes to mechanical problems

In general, when you are referring to "fixing mechanics" that indicates you're taking something that specifically makes the gameplay less playable

These changes might make them more fun (depending on personal perspective), but the underlying issues in each do not reduce playability
 
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AFAIK this only happens when you have the general set to aggressive stance and "active" despite having no battleplan. I thnk this is quite nice since when pushing thru a country you can end up with a bunch of new frontlines popping up around encirclements or pockets from splitting borders, but I still might want my armies to press the offensive on all fronts without having to constantly draw new arrows.
A few corrections, since I am actually describing separate issues in what you quote:
  • Aggressive units attempting to close pockets is reasonable. Aggressive units attacking on their own front line is reasonable. Aggressive units attacking outside of their battleplan/front line is *not* reasonable. It amounts to the game doing a different battle plan than the one drawn. If you want to "keep up an offensive", a functional implementation would be for you to put the units into their respective battle plan front lines accordingly.
    • Executing a battle plan that way is almost guaranteed to bleed equipment in the hundreds of thousands to millions. It is awful SP play in most cases, and it appears based on MP videos advocating against it that it is also considered awful in most cases there.
    • The battle planner is so bad that it even manages to take several times the necessary casualties when closing pockets, even absent attacks away from its front line which causes even more.
    • This behavior is about as justifiable as "spearheads" that do "support attacks" for pinning attacks intended to support the spearhead. Though I note that also had posters advocating in favor of that meme behavior. That's not what "spearhead means", though. Similarly, when you execute a plan "aggressively", this does not *reasonably* mean to execute a different plan "aggressively". If we want the other plan active too, we can...activate multiple plans.
  • The second issue has nothing to do with aggressive orders at all. It's a pathing issue. The AI will sometimes just decide that the best way to reposition units along your front line is to physically move *through* the enemy (with a green arrow) to try to fill out the spearhead provinces.
    • This happens whether you manually leave troops behind on the spearhead, or use a non-FM frontline to cover for you automatically (and poorly)...a FM to get planning bonus will still path units through enemy territory regardless unless you unassign/garrison the entire freaking line.
    • I get that minimum movement optimizations for a battle planner front line might be beyond devs' ability. I don't think it's too much to ask that units without any orders activated don't attack the enemy when you're not looking, though.

Presumably this is coming along with the peace deal rework... I hope...
I hope so too, but I can't emphasize enough how meaningless a peace deal rework will feel if participation score does not work. Right now, it does not work. The new conferences will barely improve the fairness of outcomes if participation score is not fixed.
Could you be more specific? Just saying "more feature bloat" isn't constructive criticism- it's repetitive and unimaginative.
Just some examples of why bad suggestions are bad:
  • Penalizing equipment capture makes an already questionable option worse. It also introduces significant micromanagement as you now have to untick equipment in divisions over trivial stuff. All of that for...how many meaningful gameplay choices being made? Oops, that duplicated template is out of "infantry equipment 1 from Iran", get rekt until you update it to "infantry equipment 1 from Netherlands". No thanks.
  • In practice, logarithmic vs exponential penalties in supply will change gameplay decisions...how exactly? You are already more penalized (by a lot) for being low supply with motorized/tanks, being out of supply is already bad/crippling if it's low for meaningful periods of time. The system mostly works, in a game with multiple systems which do not work, objectively.
  • Resistance is an abstraction, and functions in that capacity. If you have sufficiently good anti-resistance investment (through collab + garrison troop type + policy), you can trivialize damage. You can also take tradeoffs to get more production + more resistance. Crushing resistance a few times making it stop would damage the abstracted tradeoffs, with no proposed model for why players would still pick different options then.
  • "Escort" air mission does not change the approach to air combat in any meaningful way. You already get this by putting superiority in the same air zone as your bombers.
  • "Artillery is powerless" strikes me as a false assertion. Maybe you prefer its nerfs reversed, but there's no argumentation along those lines here.
  • What is the gameplay benefit to adding more tank support companies, rather than just putting them in a line battalion? You don't got into detail here, so it's not surprising people rejecting the OP don't go into detail either.
  • The game already abstracts degrading entrenchment and fort damage (sustained attacks force org rotating, and damage forts).
  • 2.6 is literally in the game already.
  • Similarly, units in low supply already have junk stats.
In a thread about "fixing" things, one normally expects this to concentrate on aspects of the game that do not work at present, not suggestions that add more complexity (in many cases without changing actual tradeoffs/player decisions in practice) into a game that objectively can't handle its present level of complexity (given the vast quantity of confirmed issues).

You are literally proposing to penalize equipment capture in a game which gives false information about equipment capture ratio (per 71cloak's tests, 10% is more like 5-6%). If we're talking "fixing" something, the things in the game that lie or don't work would be the place to start. Amusingly, you only mention the UI in passing, despite that it is one of HOI 4's most glaring flaws...a setup that requires tons of extra unnecessary inputs, arbitrarily penalizes micromanagement while forcing micromanagement to play well, lies about what it will do, and has multiple trap options + bugged displays.
 
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I'd love to see an overhaul of the battleplanner AI. It would benefit the AI players as well as human ones.

Things I'd like to see on the AI side:
  • A way to tell an army to advance, but only into empty enemy territory, ending any accidental offensive combats ASAP. This would be great for infantry armies that can't efficiently attack, but are confronted with an enemy front-line that's full of holes. As it is, you have to tell them to attack and risk them getting into fights you don't want, or micromanage the advance yourself.
  • A way to prevent units attacking into areas you haven't marked for attack. This includes automatically expanding the front line every time a province is taken - I only have enough tanks to concentrate force on a 3-province front, stop spreading everyone out!
Related things I'd like to see on the mechanics side:
  • Units that are in "reserve" in a combat should not be prevented from leaving the province or regaining organisation. They're explicitly not involved in the combat that's going on, so shouldn't be hindered by it. Too often you get attacks by a couple of divisions that "pin down" many times that number because the combat width is too small for the combat to end quickly. There isn't a good way to have reserve troops that can move around and rest behind the lines without doing a lot of micromanagement, so let's make defending a little less punishing on that front. Obviously this would be a buff to defensive play, so some breakthrough numbers might need to be adjusted to compensate.
 
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