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Y. D. Dandy

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I've seen a fair number of posts in various threads suggesting that naval warfare in EU4 is grossly underpowered. I personally think a large part of the problem is that the AI never uses it properly, rather than an inherent issue with the mechanic. I can see plenty features of historic naval warfare which are missing, but they all seem to be relatively minor; relevant only for specific countries or places.

All the same, I would love to have some of the mission features, even though I know that they'd all be a lot of work for a minor benefit (except the last one which is actually easily user-moddable). Since I therefore can't imagine Paradox would add any of these to the game, I'm not going to post them to suggestions.

Rather, I'm going to post them here, in part to fantasize and in part because I'm wondering if there are other, grander, more universal aspects of naval warfare which people are thinking of to when they criticize the current naval warfare mechanics.

  1. Ice
    As the game stands, I can land a fleet in Neva in December, and the Portuguese can retrofit in Kamchatka in January, even though historically the ports in those province would have been frozen solid in that period. It would be nice if coastal zone could have a feature which would specify an "iced in" period during which units can't move into or out of their ports, and sea zones could have an "iced over" period, during which they couldn't be entered or exited, and during which units caught in them (both naval units and land units on transport) would take attrition. Also during this period which infantry and possibly cavalry units could enter sea zones, but will be lost if the ice melts.
    -
  2. Fortified straits
    Currently, it's really no big deal to sail around Jutland, and the Kiel Canal is just something to build if you have too much money and Holstein. Historically though, Denmark had massive forts on the Oresund and the Belt, charged fees for passage, and blocked them off during wars. Likewise, the Ottomans blocked off the Dardanelles and Bosporus while the Crimeans blocked off the Crimean Bosporus. So it would be neat if you could identify some sea zones as straits, and two adjacent provinces as controlling them. This would allow the owners of one or both of those provinces to build batteries as a new category of building, with the level dependent on the artillery level. Batteries would cause severe attrition to units passing one, several times that attrition to units passing both, and give a significant bonus to naval battles in the sea zone they control.
    -
  3. Blocking of canals
    In real life it's stupidly easy for the controller of a canal to close it to enemy warships. The Panama Canal and Kiel Canal have locks, while the Suez Canal is wicked long and fairly narrow. It would be neat to have this mechanic happen by default. It would also be neat for the "looted province" modifier to block the canal to friendly and neutral units, and for a "sabotaged canal" modifier to pop up in provinces taken by the enemy, which would extend the transit block even longer while draining money from the controller's treasury to repair it.
    -
  4. Raids
    Part of the way the British kept their enemies from doing what AI France does in game (landing armies in Britain) was by guarding the Channel in wartime (something I wish AI Britain would think to do), part of their strategy was landing forces and destroying ships in the harbor. They did it with French transports, and they also tried to do it with the Spanish fleet, only for the Brits to get drunk in Corunna and blow the whole plan to bits. To simulate this strategy, it would be neat to have an "attack fleet" option for military units in a blockaded province. This would probably work by having some chance of causing damage to the ships, depending on the number and type of ships and their morale and discipline. Transports would almost always be destroyed with such an action, but the presence of heavy or light ships would run the risk of a "troops find the captain's wine" event, which would drop morale to zero, delaying any further actions with those troops.
    -
  5. Transfer trade with fleets
    Historically the Spanish treasure fleets were a major target in both war and peace, forcing the Spaniards to send warships to protect them. In the game, the Spanish and Portuguese transfer their massive trade home with traders, and never have to worry about raids taking their fleet. Allowing a new class of merchant ship which could transfer trade power, but with the risk of being hit by pirates, privateers, or enemies would be pretty awesome.
    -
  6. Mercenary ships
    Historically, the Dutch tended to recruit armed merchant ships for naval battles, usually by promising them a share of the spoils (though I imagine they might have paid some of them too), and pretty much all seafaring nations in Europe recruited privateers via letters of marque. It would be neat to have "enlist privateers" as a build action rather than a decision, one which would recruit ships more quickly, but which would have a higher upkeep unless they were on a privateering mission (and if on a privateering mission, the privateers would get all the spoils of that mission).
    -
  7. Barbary Pirates
    Currently, when pirates do appear, they pop up in sea zones where nobody bothers protecting trade (places like Labrador and Lappland) and blockade ports. That appears to be all they do. The Barbary pirates, however were a real threat to Europe historically, since they not only destroyed European merchant ships but conducted slaving raids against the coasts, taking millions of people from Europe. A lot of them were essentially privateers. The Maghrebi states either actively supported them or treated them like merchants on business, allowing them to conduct a lucrative slave trade in their ports. The Barbary Pirates also had assistance from the Dutch during the Dutch revolt. One way you might represent this is by allowing Muslim states with a Mediterranean coastline, and the Dutch during the Dutch Revolt to sponsor pirates against their rivals. For the Maghrebis it could be part of the national ideas, while other Muslim states and the Dutch could get it as a decision or event.
    -
  8. Lake battles
    Historically, both the Caspian and the Great Lakes were the sites of important naval battles. However unlike the other items on my wishlist, I think this could be fixed in a mod, simply by designating them as inland seas (and splitting the Caspian into zones).

Any rate, that's my naval wishlist, as it currently stands.
What aspects of naval warfare do the rest of you wish were available?

Addendum—Stuff other people wish for:
 
Last edited:

IcyBlizzard

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+1
Would love naval terrain as well if you could add it to the list
 

Y. D. Dandy

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What do you mean by naval terrain? Isn't ocean basically just ocean? (My grandfather was a sailor, but it's clearly not genetic.)

The list is my personal list of naval features which would make the game be more fun, but probably not be worth adding. (If I think of new things that I could see Paradox actually adding, I'll post them to suggestions.)

However if you want to explain what you mean by naval terrain, I could put an addendum at the bottom for things on other peoples' wish lists.
 

Thrake

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They should also really rework straight blocking. It feels wrong when I can block 50k men from crossing a straight with a single cogue. It should at least require enough ships to blockade the provinces of the straight... Also, naval fights shouldn't prevent from crossing: I can just send a single ship commit suicide to stop the crossing. Against Sweden for exemple, if I beat their armies, they retreat through Aland. Even if they overpower me greatly by sea, I can just send one light ship, he'll fight against 50 galleys and die while it will stop the retreating army, that I can then easily whipe before they get a chance to move.

Otherwise, I'm all in for more in-depth naval fighting. Would it be historical for armies to cross iced seas? Would cannons really be able to cross without breaking it? Or horses on ice?...
 

IcyBlizzard

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What do you mean by naval terrain? Isn't ocean basically just ocean? (My grandfather was a sailor, but it's clearly not genetic.)

The list is my personal list of naval features which would make the game be more fun, but probably not be worth adding. (If I think of new things that I could see Paradox actually adding, I'll post them to suggestions.)

However if you want to explain what you mean by naval terrain, I could put an addendum at the bottom for things on other peoples' wish lists.
I mean like in that (Aegean Sea?) province in between Greece and Turkey, they shouldn't act as though it's open ocean in my opinion. I don't know these things exactly, but I know terrain influenced some naval battles in the past, with ambushes and stuff. (Maybe a use for manoeuvre?)
 

Y. D. Dandy

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Otherwise, I'm all in for more in-depth naval fighting. Would it be historical for armies to cross iced seas? Would cannons really be able to cross without breaking it? Or horses on ice?...
Good point. I think horses probably wouldn't break the kind of ice that blocked in ships, but I'm not certain. I seem to recall that one horse weighs about as much as 4 grown men, on the other hand they put their weight on a much smaller area. Cannons almost certainly would break sea ice.
 

Sweawm

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It looks like at least one of these wishes is coming true with the Treasure Fleet's feature coming in the El Dorado DLC. Spanish Treasure Fleets will apparently be bringing Gold from the New World to Spain and you'll have the opportunity to raid them.
 

Y. D. Dandy

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pdx pls repair naval combat system.
What do you mean by this?

It looks like at least one of these wishes is coming true with the Treasure Fleet's feature coming in the El Dorado DLC. Spanish Treasure Fleets will apparently be bringing Gold from the New World to Spain and you'll have the opportunity to raid them.
That's surprising, but definitely awesome.
I missed that when I looked at El Dorado's features, I guess because I'd been hoping that it would improve colonialism with something similar to the Spanish missions, which definitely wasn't on that list.

I'll be quite curious to see the mechanic is used. Is it a new type of ship, or a new action for current ones? Are exploration ideas or some other idea group a prerequisite? Can anyone build treasure fleets? Anyone with a New World presence? Only the Spaniards?
 

cleef

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MeatPirate

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Fixing the combat system so not all ships are sunk on one side is really all I could ask for. There are AI problems, but to be fair this is not an easy issue to solve (in general, and certainly at this point in development).

Navigable rivers would be cool. I think it would add something to colonization at the very least (settling up the St Lawrence, Mississippi, Rio Plata, etc.).
 

Pellucid

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I'd also like to see the option to simply avoid combat. A fleet of heavies should have basically zero chance of catching a fleet of light ships that isn't interested in fighting them, even in the same seazone.
 

chris_dftba

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What do you mean by this?


That's surprising, but definitely awesome.
I missed that when I looked at El Dorado's features, I guess because I'd been hoping that it would improve colonialism with something similar to the Spanish missions, which definitely wasn't on that list.

I'll be quite curious to see the mechanic is used. Is it a new type of ship, or a new action for current ones? Are exploration ideas or some other idea group a prerequisite? Can anyone build treasure fleets? Anyone with a New World presence? Only the Spaniards?

Gold Fleets can traffic New World wealth back to Europe, and be targeted by your privateer fleets
- Use your trade fleets to hunt dangerous pirates

It's probably going to be a new feature for trade ships. And by the sounds of it it's going to be anyone who can do it. After all, the spanish aren't the only ones who colonize or trade in the new world, hell, in my current game as Great Britain they only control one province in the Caribbean
 

IIWW

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They should also really rework straight blocking. It feels wrong when I can block 50k men from crossing a straight with a single cogue. It should at least require enough ships to blockade the provinces of the straight... Also, naval fights shouldn't prevent from crossing: I can just send a single ship commit suicide to stop the crossing. Against Sweden for exemple, if I beat their armies, they retreat through Aland. Even if they overpower me greatly by sea, I can just send one light ship, he'll fight against 50 galleys and die while it will stop the retreating army, that I can then easily whipe before they get a chance to move.

Otherwise, I'm all in for more in-depth naval fighting. Would it be historical for armies to cross iced seas? Would cannons really be able to cross without breaking it? Or horses on ice?...
1. Maybe blockade at least one province in the strait? It seems more logical to me.
2. I'm not sure about whole armies, but during some harsh winters there was a regular road through Baltic sea (from Poland to Sweden), even some restaurants/pubs were build there.
As for armies for sure there was such case during the 80YW when spanish ships were trapped in ice and attacked by dutch cavalary.
 

josh127

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Rather, I'm going to post them here, in part to fantasize and in part because I'm wondering if there are other, grander, more universal aspects of naval warfare which people are thinking of to when they criticize the current naval warfare mechanics.
I don't enjoy the fact that naval warfare is more a game of cat and mouse than actual warfare, and I don't enjoy that most fights are all or nothing with one navy getting totally annihilated most the time. I would prefer the combat to be met more often with more balanced losses (assuming similar fleets). You might have a major victory where I lose a lot, but in most cases with large fights I would expect reasonable losses on each side.

The second thing that bothers me with naval warfare is how automated ships are just getting wrecked because they're caught out. The two scenarios I'm concerned with are when you have a trade fleet set to return home at war, and when you auto build ships and they're grouping up. In these cases I'd like to see the ships get safe passage while making their automated movement as if their orders were to evade the enemy at all costs.
 

Y. D. Dandy

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Fixing the combat system so not all ships are sunk on one side is really all I could ask for. There are AI problems, but to be fair this is not an easy issue to solve (in general, and certainly at this point in development).
I'd actually assumed that was intentional, until you brought it up. I'd noticed that mmaller battles tend not to lose all their ships, while larger ones do, so I figured it was supposed to simulate the decisive naval engagements of history. Actually checking the casualties in those battles, however, I see that you're right. With a few exceptions, such as the Battle of The Downs, only small parts of fleets were destroyed, and even at the Downs the Spaniards still salvaged a few ships.

I also notice in checking naval battles that fleets were also considerably smaller than the ones involved in game, which makes me think naval forcelimits are too high, and/or maintenance is too low.

Navigable rivers would be cool. I think it would add something to colonization at the very least (settling up the St Lawrence, Mississippi, Rio Plata, etc.).
I thought about adding this to my own list. The only reason I didn't is that I can't think of any cases in the EU4 period where river warfare was important. There were a few in the Victoria 2 period, a few in the CK2 period, and a lot in the period before Paradox has any games, but I don't know of any examples from EU4. I'm sure there must be come, but the fact that I couldn't think of any indicated that river combat probably wasn't all that important. However there are people working on mods to make rivers navigable. Here's one, though it's outdated. I also saw another one that was a work-in-progress, though I can't seem to find it.

The colonization thing I hadn't thought about.

I'd also like to see the option to simply avoid combat. A fleet of heavies should have basically zero chance of catching a fleet of light ships that isn't interested in fighting them, even in the same seazone.
Historically, admirals could send the fast ships to catch the enemy, as in the Battle of the Downs. However in that case, the Spanish were hiding in what they hoped were neutral waters, basically sitting still.

In a board game I have for the Napoleonic Wars, you have to roll to see if you can catch the fleet. (In the same game, land units could roll to evade other attacking land units, basically the presumption of whether the enemy could be caught was reversed.) It seems like a similar roll, based the maneuver ability of the two leaders might make sense. Though I think that if the enemy fleet is currently blockading, you should always be able to engage. I don't know if Paradox would implement evasion, but it seems like a generally applicable point which they could implement, with less work than most of my fantasy features.

I don't enjoy the fact that naval warfare is more a game of cat and mouse than actual warfare, and I don't enjoy that most fights are all or nothing with one navy getting totally annihilated most the time. I would prefer the combat to be met more often with more balanced losses (assuming similar fleets). You might have a major victory where I lose a lot, but in most cases with large fights I would expect reasonable losses on each side.
Historically naval warfare mostly was a game of cat-and-mouse.

However as I note above, unequal losses is a fair point. I checked the battle of Trafalgar: the Franco-Spanish didn't even lose a quarter of their fleet in the most famous naval battle in history.

The second thing that bothers me with naval warfare is how automated ships are just getting wrecked because they're caught out. The two scenarios I'm concerned with are when you have a trade fleet set to return home at war, and when you auto build ships and they're grouping up. In these cases I'd like to see the ships get safe passage while making their automated movement as if their orders were to evade the enemy at all costs.
I, for one second this idea for the current naval mechanics. Though if evasion were to be implemented for all cases, I'd like there to be some chance of catching them.
 

thErgonomic

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Good point. I think horses probably wouldn't break the kind of ice that blocked in ships, but I'm not certain. I seem to recall that one horse weighs about as much as 4 grown men, on the other hand they put their weight on a much smaller area. Cannons almost certainly would break sea ice.
You might want to look into the Finnish War. It involved a lot of walking on the frozen Baltic Sea.