[WIP] [SUBMOD] FPS_CTD "V2" - An economy mod *progress slow but steady*

[Arko]

Greetings,
this time no info, but for the first time an actual request for help!
The problem I am facing is that I need to set flags on individual provinces in order to copy information from a reference map to the game map. Which means that I am currently directly comparing provinces in-game with the map (tabbing in- and out of the game), and then searching the province name in province_setup to find the province_id, to then add a flag to that province.
Sounds complicated, and it is. But don't try to convince me that this is unnecessary, because I am stubborn.

Instead, what would be very helpful was to have a map that shows all the province ids in one place, so I could compare maps without having to be in the game. I am thinking of something like this:

This is from the wiki, for the vanilla map.
But the CK2+ map differs significantly from this one, and I need an exact one. Sadly, I have no idea how to generate such a map automatically (since manually would just be the same problem I am currently facing again...), and frankly I don't have time to learn how to do this.
Thus if anyone happens to be good with automatically generating stuff like this, I would be very grateful to have a map like the above for CK2+. If not, I will still mod on, just my progress will obviously be slower.
So if someone feels up to the challenge, I'd be grateful

PM me i can point you to a useful tool (i just need to find back the link)

 

[BrokenSky]

If that doesn't work, couldn't you just mess with the localisation files so every province was named after it's province ID?

 

[LordPeter]

Okay just wanted to let you know the problem is solved, as kind fellow modder Mouchi has updated the tool I was commended to.
You may also have noticed from one of my recent posts elsewhere what I have been working on
But I'll get into more info on how this affects this mod here in a later dev diary.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Can you post a list of all the resources you're adding?

 

[LordPeter]

Can you post a list of all the resources you're adding?

Soon, not yet sorry.
Too much is still in the flow, I need to do at least another pass on them.

Edit: But I had already uploaded a teaser of the current design spreadsheet

 

[LordPeter]

Welcome to the fifth FPS dev diary:

"A Change of Plants"​

This one wasn't planned originally, so I won't show any new/exciting stuff (on which I have been working on ^^). Instead, I will present to you a first glimpse at my tradegood lineup. The reason is that I have decided that I want the tradegood design to be at least 99% done before I start implementing them. I'm still several steps away from that, and thus I thought it'd be helpful to get feedback already on it, so that I have time to adjust design before I start implementing stuff. I'm especially looking for stuff I might have been missing, even though it's unlikely - maybe an obscure but important tradegood that simply isn't listed on Wikipedia yet. And of course you may give general feedback as well.
(Needless to say that the title this time is simply a pun and no quotation, so no need to search for it, there will be no special teaser.)

Plants
Today's tradegood type will be plants - or plantproducts, if you want. I won't go into any detail or give explanations, as that'll be done later when the design is finished. For now, I'll just post the complete (and unsorted) list, and leave you to google yourself if you don't know something. You'll note that the list has grown quite a bit compared to the first version of the mod, and that is intentional - to compensate for the increased diversity, I have already stated before that every province can by default now produce 3 different resources.
Plants unchanged from the original version are marked with (O), while ones that I currently consider to scrap are marked with (?).

• Cotton (O)
  
• Flax (O)
• Hemp (O)
• Ramie
• Kenaf
• Jute
• Roselle
• Sugar Cane (O)
• Black Pepper
• Ginger
• Saffron
• Anise
• Cumin (?)
  
• Mustard Seeds
• Tanner's Sumac
• Tea (O)
• Dyer's Woad
• Indigo
• Henna
• Madder
• Weld
• Safflower
• Turnsole
• Spikenard
• Poppy (O)
• Sesame (O)
• Hops
• Saltwort
• Straw
• Wheat
• Barley
• Rye
• Oat
• Millet
• Buckwheat
• Rice
• Timber
• Firewood
• Flexible Twigs
• Sandalwood
• Ebony
• Agarwood
• Sappanwood
• Cedarwood
• Teak
• Tanbark
• Cork
• Birch Bark
• Palm Leaves
• Cinnamon
• Oak Galls
• Tamarind
• Almonds (O)
• Nuts
• Tree Fruit
• Dates
• Citrus Fruit
• Grapes
• Exotic Fruit
• Olives (O)
  
• Juniper Berries
• Resin
• Frankincense
• Myrrh
• Mastic
• Dragon's Blood
• Natural Gum
• Birch Sap
• Mushrooms
• Peat
• Seaweed
• Reed
• Bracken Fern
• Herbs (O)
  
• Berries
• Vegetables (O)
• Legumes
  
• Nettles
• Flowers (O)
  
• Papyrus Sedge (O)
  
• Khat
• Betel Leaves
• Areca Nuts
• Argan Seeds
• Palm Pulp
• Moringa Kernels

Whew. That's was a lot. Some of these are a bit obscure, some are generic "collective" goods for various similar items (such as "Nuts" or "Tree Fruit"), but again I really don't have nerve to explain them all in detail yet.

It might have become obvious that I am trying to actually "simulate" a medieval economy, and not just having a playable "game" feature. For those who are looking for a simpler design, I say look elsewhere - Maal's Trade League for example is another design path that is much more accessible. Of course my submod will still be playable, and hopefully fun - just not simple.
But if you are excited for obscure and half-forgotten detail like I am, then this mod is for you. Also needless to say that with all these options, player choice will be much more seldom and not regularly enforced as with the old mod version.

I hope this list hasn't scared too many people away, but yeah, feel free to comment if you have any questions/suggestions.
Oh and if you have questions about one or two individual plants, then I can give you a short explanation - I just didn't want to give them for all of them at once.

 

[xzandrox]

It might have become obvious that I am trying to actually "simulate" a medieval economy, and not just having a playable "game" feature.

A) You're insane I hope you succeed.
B) Are you going to be touching the "tax" system at all or are you limiting it to the trade and production side?

 

[BrokenSky]

This feels bizarrely complicated compared to things like that you can only have a limited few resources being produced in a province, or how each province only makes enough resource to support one province's secondary production. I really hope this works, but I feel like you're running the risk of putting in an uneven level of detail and running into the problem where adding more detail leads to less historical (and more weird) outcomes?

For example it might lead to a problem where a lot of secondary goods can't be made because there aren't any provinces which have all the requirements in range?

 

[LordPeter]

A) You're insane I hope you succeed.

Don't worry, I will - precisely because I am insane
No srsly, the mod will be finished eventually because I am mostly making it for myself still - whether it will be fun in the end remains to be seen.

B) Are you going to be touching the "tax" system at all or are you limiting it to the trade and production side?

No comment
But I can only do so much with existing mechanics, don't get your hopes too high.

This feels bizarrely complicated compared to things like that you can only have a limited few resources being produced in a province, or how each province only makes enough resource to support one province's secondary production. I really hope this works, but I feel like you're running the risk of putting in an uneven level of detail and running into the problem where adding more detail leads to less historical (and more weird) outcomes?

For example it might lead to a problem where a lot of secondary goods can't be made because there aren't any provinces which have all the requirements in range?

A valid point. I have pondered this a lot myself, and have come to the conclusion that I want it to be a this level of detail
However, that level of detail will be throughout the entire production system, so everything will be ridiculously detailed, but on the same level. I have various plans for mechanics I can't (or don't want to) share yet, but rest assured that there will be no asymmetrical level of detail. However, for now that's all only in my head and in the spreadsheets, we'll see how well this will work ingame.

That any province can produce 3 resources, 3 refined and 3 finalized products seems enough for me, as much more modifiers would clutter the interface too much. I am not really simulating the local subsistence economy, only stuff that is produced as a surplus and thus can get refined/traded. A random peasant might have a few pigs and a field of wheat, but unless a lot of peasants do produce exactly the same and it yields a big surplus, it is not relevant for the world. So if local peasants have "in reality" pigs, sheep, cows and produce grapes, wheat, legumes and stone, only the three of them that yield the biggest surplus are considered "tradegoods" by me: This might be, for example, pigs, grapes and stone. The other resources exist as well, but I can't simulate them, and so I'll just assume they are used up entirely to feed the local populace.

As for the example you named, that is indeed possible, but unlikely: Because the amount of resources has grown so much, most secondary/tertiary products will accept a far greater range of resources as alternatives. For example, "Plant Oil" does now accept any of "Flax/Hemp/MustardSeeds/Safflower/Poppy/Sesame/Almonds/Nuts/Kenaf/ArganSeeds/PalmPulp/MoringaKernels" as its resource - thus it would be highly unlikely that not at least one of these 12 ingredients grows nearby.
What really could be problematic is performance, because the events now have to check for a lot more alternatives. It might be that this submod will require you to have a more powerful CPU than even CK2+ does, if you want to play without stutter.

 

[LordPeter]

Welcome to a... dev thought:

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly​

Greetings. Let me start by saying that this is no dev diary. I can't show anything new yet, but I feel like it is time to give an update and a bit of explanation. I have decided to call this "dev thought" in the wake of vanilla doing something similar recently. Well, here we go:

The Good
The good new is that I have been invited to join the CK2+ dev team as a contributor. Yay! While I made a few mistakes in the beginning, I think I have settled right in.
It's great because I can learn a lot of "pro" things from the other guys, and also because I can take a look at upcoming changes. I might even be able to tweak some things so that the submod will work smoother together with the main mod; but that does not mean that anything will be directly integrated in the main mod.

The Bad
The "downside" of this new commitment is that I have been sinking lots of time into contributing to the main mod, like tweaking the map a bit in Northern Germany. That was fun and very instructive, but it also meant I invested far less time into developing this submod here. I'm greatly diverted from my estimated schedule, and I don't know when I will be able to present a playable version at this point. Probably at earliest end of this year.

The Ugly
However, I have not entirely given up on this, and actually made progress on some parts. These are... more or less mysterious, so I can't tell you anything about it, but I did make a teaser. It's a bit old so you'll notice the underlying map has changed now, but it's good enough. Have fun figuring out what this is ^^

 

[cyberTripping]

was the teaser intended to be that tiny

 

[LordPeter]

was the teaser intended to be that tiny

It was.
You're not supposed to see anything on it, otherwise it'd be too easy

But yeah, sorry, more informative info coming later this year.

 

[cyberTripping]

So i blew the map up, and thought it looked familiar, and then i realised it was areas of certain koppen climate zones! Namely, the Mediterranean climate (Csa and Csb classifications) extending down into the mesopotamia area. In fact, I think i know the exact map this was based on, since i was using it as part of some climate research shit for a worldbuilding project.

 

[BrokenSky]

So i blew the map up, and thought it looked familiar, and then i realised it was areas of certain koppen climate zones! Namely, the Mediterranean climate (Csa and Csb classifications) extending down into the mesopotamia area. In fact, I think i know the exact map this was based on, since i was using it as part of some climate research shit for a worldbuilding project.

But there's some real colour variation in the eastern steppe, where the provinces are larger. I suspect it's some kind of trade good mapmode; with the availability of different trade goods being climate dependent, it might also follow the same patterns as the climate map?

Not sure what the weird green outline around britian and Ireland is though.

 

[cyberTripping]

But there's some real colour variation in the eastern steppe, where the provinces are larger. I suspect it's some kind of trade good mapmode; with the availability of different trade goods being climate dependent, it might also follow the same patterns as the climate map?

Not sure what the weird green outline around britian and Ireland is though.

guessing the outline would just be easier as a circle since its surrounded by ocean, rather than specifically outlining britain, as its almost entirely a single climate

as for the eastern steppes, it looks just like the other map to me, with the blue above the sandy colors. Keep in mind ck2's projection is really weird and east asia is sorta squished and titled as a result. look at the tianxia map for an idea of what i mean.

 

[BrokenSky]

guessing the outline would just be easier as a circle since its surrounded by ocean, rather than specifically outlining britain, as its almost entirely a single climate

as for the eastern steppes, it looks just like the other map to me, with the blue above the sandy colors. Keep in mind ck2's projection is really weird and east asia is sorta squished and titled as a result. look at the tianxia map for an idea of what i mean.

But the individual provinces in britian are multi-coloured; greens, browns, purples. Likewise the eastern steppe; dark greens, purples, browns and blues like a patchwork.

 

[LordPeter]

So i blew the map up, and thought it looked familiar, and then i realised it was areas of certain koppen climate zones! Namely, the Mediterranean climate (Csa and Csb classifications) extending down into the mesopotamia area. In fact, I think i know the exact map this was based on, since i was using it as part of some climate research shit for a worldbuilding project.

You are actually right, no use in denying it

That was just how I envisioned it would be deciphered, by zooming in. People tend to forget that information can be more or less accessible depending on zoom. So good job!
And you actually also found the map I was using, impressive! I started with the one from Wikipedia, but I must say that one is really rough and inaccurate in many areas. I cross-checked with yet another map (http://koeppen-geiger.vu-wien.ac.at/shifts.htm) to make sure I get everything right. Of course I don't have maps from the Middle Ages, so it's simply the modern climate overlay (but cross-checked with the 1900 version).

As for the color variation and other weirdness, like the circle around GB: That is simply because this was my working overlay to determine where should be what on the CK2 map. Because as you say, the projection is really f*cked up. I actually also made a screenshot from the ingame result using my "fake mapmode" thingy. Guess there's no reason not to share it now:

That's still with the old map though, notably missing the Sahara provinces etc.

But yeah, it started because I was looking into ways to make resource distribution more natural, and regions are a bit broad to capture variations, for example between mountains and lowlands.
So now I basically set a province flag on startup that determines which Köppen Zone a province is part of, and which in turn determines which crops you can grow there. The system is still not perfect (biggest problem: Wine/Grapes - might get a special rule so you can't grow them in Norway), but it's far better than just taking province terrain and world region imo.
The climate zones don't do much otherwise atm, as the on-map visible "winter" is defined in a static file, and I don't want to mess with that. Actually, they might work together, with the "Köppen zone" determining the major climate, and the "vanilla Winter" determining variations within that, sort of a "plant hardiness" level (which can't be derived from Köppen climate).
In the future, I might even use the system to simulate the "Medieval Warm Period" by shifting the areas, but that is not a priority at all, just an afterthought.

 

[BrokenSky]

So now I basically set a province flag on startup that determines which Köppen Zone a province is part of, and which in turn determines which crops you can grow there. The system is still not perfect (biggest problem: Wine/Grapes - might get a special rule so you can't grow them in Norway), but it's far better than just taking province terrain and world region imo.
The climate zones don't do much otherwise atm, as the on-map visible "winter" is defined in a static file, and I don't want to mess with that. Actually, they might work together, with the "Köppen zone" determining the major climate, and the "vanilla Winter" determining variations within that, sort of a "plant hardiness" level (which can't be derived from Köppen climate).
In the future, I might even use the system to simulate the "Medieval Warm Period" by shifting the areas, but that is not a priority at all, just an afterthought.

Perhaps split the light green into two different types, with scandinavia and most of the british isles (aside from perhaps the south coast of england) one colour and the rest another?

 

[LordPeter]

Perhaps split the light green into two different types, with scandinavia and most of the british isles (aside from perhaps the south coast of england) one colour and the rest another?

Nah I won't split it, the Köppen classification is a well thought-through system that I don't want to touch.
But I was thinking to difficult: I will just add region-based restrictions as well, so you won't be able to grow grapes in Scandinavia.

 

[Cédric de Caen]

Progress ?