Winterclothes - As support material in winterwars

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Shade205

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Simple reading on this issue shows that winter was minor issue. It's just incompetence of Hitler who caused its catastrophic effects. Game won't simulate Nazies stupidity in proper manner though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Winter

Well, call me a genius if it that it takes these days to realize that invasion of country of the size of USA will take more than a year and it would be nice idea to take some winter clothes with you...you know, just in case you won't make it before Christmas to fuck entirety of USSR.

Btw: at least Germans froze to death looking pretty. German efficiency sadly was sleeping then fashion designers murdered thousands of German soldiers in making their winter uniforms look fashionable...

Hitler wasn't incompetent in the slightest, he ran circles around other European countries diplomatically getting major advantages for the axis before the war even started, he went from being homeless to bringing a country that was very much down and out to dominate almost the entirety of Europe, and it was his decision to follow the famous battle plan that was the German Miracle and Allied Catastrophe known as the Battle of France.

If you speak of his failure to recognize that the Soviet Union would not surrender then you speak with the advantage of hindsight. Japan, USA, Great Britain, French government in exile, and all axis minors thought that the Soviets would of given up after the pounding they were receiving it is a real credit to Stalin and the sacrifices and destruction of his own people that he was willing to put them through and the effectiveness of Soviet industrial mobilization that they not only stayed in the war but turned it around. As for the size of the country being a factor anything east of Stalingrad and Moscow did not hold much strategic value. True a lot of the industry was moved into the Urals because of the rapid German advance but this would not amount to much if they lost all the resources of western Russia, including the oil rich caucuses.

If you speak of Hitlers military decisions then you again speak with hindsight, as well as a lack of the knowledge of the approach Hitler had towards war, Hitler fought the war mainly concerned with the ground battles in Europe placing everything else in the sea and the air and land combat outside of Europe as secondary in priority. Even Churchill admitted that the United Kingdom would be fighting a losing battle and would have to come to terms with Germany (Favorable towards Germany) if the Nazis kept the pressure up on them and prioritized the Suez. He was BEGGING Roosevelt for help in the time period between the Fall of France and before Barbarossa was launched. He did not think England would be able to keep the fight up for the rest of 1941 maybe up until early 1942 at the latest ( mind you these were ENGLISH estimates not GERMAN ones ) And he very much through the Germans were going to keep the pressure up and were putting more effort into Africa than they actually were planning. Hitler was a Corporal and he approached the war as such he did not think on a global scale only a European ground scale. This is covered extensively in the book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer and is often considered one of the best sources of knowledge on Nazi Germany (I highly suggest the book) if your interested in learning more.

As for Hitlers poor tactical decision making in Russia like the Disastrous Stalingrad, Kursk, and Case Blue in general that also can not be evidence of Hitlers Incompetence. At that time absolute power had corrupted Hitler absolutely as it does and he was definitely suffering from Megalomania which many a Warlord had also fallen Victim to. Add that with the crazy shit his personal Doctor was prescribing him ever since the launch of the Invasion, the stress of leading a country through such trying times, and his own personal delusions that started to form, mix all of these factors in with a man who holds absolute power over a modern powerful country and you have a recipe for disaster.

As a disclaimer I would like to claim that the disaster wasn't wanting to take Stalingrad, but instead how the Wehrmacht was ordered to take it and how much they poured into what was clearly a lost cause as well as ignoring obvious Soviet build up. Despite common western belief that it was a dick swinging content because of the name of the town taking Stalingrad should of been priority. Because of the railway system taking Stalingrad would of effectively HALVED the entire Russian front and closed off the Caucuses to the reds.
 
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Gethsemani

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I heard that the german boots weren't that suited for the winter because the nails where sucking out the warmth.

Yup, their summer boots were of the jackboot variety, but their winter boots (which were scarcely issued, particularly in 1941) were not and had no metal components. This is yet another problem that came down to logistics, the ideal was for each soldier to swap their boots between winter and summer versions in the autumn, but since boots are a looooong way down the list of prioritized items very few got their winter boots in time.
 
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Rudolf Hessbart

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True. If Hitler was so stupid and crazy he would have never accomplished such amazing stuff. Look, it took a whole world to defeat him.

@Gethsemani
Thanks
 

agentgb

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Hugo Boss could design a great looking uniform, but the seams made them inferior compared to seamless russian clothing, which nautrally trapped heat better. i'd imagine they may show the advantage again through using strategic resource fur.
 

wisecat

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So, supply drain and movement speed modifiers for extreme climes. This is very fine.
But how will it simulate
a) the previous experience of native climes had by armies/soldiers - basic knowledge of how to behave in extreme cold/hot and how to avoid frostbite/heat stroke can account for a lot of medical casualties
b) different quality of specialized and general issue gear produced by different countries

Hitler wasn't incompetent in the slightest, he ran circles around other European countries diplomatically getting major advantages for the axis before the war even started, he went from being homeless to bringing a country that was very much down and out to dominate almost the entirety of Europe, and it was his decision to follow the famous battle plan that was the German Miracle and Allied Catastrophe known as the Battle of France.

If you speak of his failure to recognize that the Soviet Union would not surrender then you speak with the advantage of hindsight. Japan, USA, Great Britain, French government in exile, and all axis minors thought that the Soviets would of given up after the pounding they were receiving it is a real credit to Stalin and the sacrifices and destruction of his own people that he was willing to put them through and the effectiveness of Soviet industrial mobilization that they not only stayed in the war but turned it around. As for the size of the country being a factor anything east of Stalingrad and Moscow did not hold much strategic value. True a lot of the industry was moved into the Urals because of the rapid German advance but this would not amount to much if they lost all the resources of western Russia, including the oil rich caucuses.

If you speak of Hitlers military decisions then you again speak with hindsight, as well as a lack of the knowledge of the approach Hitler had towards war, Hitler fought the war mainly concerned with the ground battles in Europe placing everything else in the sea and the air and land combat outside of Europe as secondary in priority. Even Churchill admitted that the United Kingdom would be fighting a losing battle and would have to come to terms with Germany (Favorable towards Germany) if the Nazis kept the pressure up on them and prioritized the Suez. He was BEGGING Roosevelt for help in the time period between the Fall of France and before Barbarossa was launched. He did not think England would be able to keep the fight up for the rest of 1941 maybe up until early 1942 at the latest ( mind you these were ENGLISH estimates not GERMAN ones ) And he very much through the Germans were going to keep the pressure up and were putting more effort into Africa than they actually were planning. Hitler was a Corporal and he approached the war as such he did not think on a global scale only a European ground scale. This is covered extensively in the book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer and is often considered one of the best sources of knowledge on Nazi Germany (I highly suggest the book) if your interested in learning more.

As for Hitlers poor tactical decision making in Russia like the Disastrous Stalingrad, Kursk, and Case Blue in general that also can not be evidence of Hitlers Incompetence. At that time absolute power had corrupted Hitler absolutely as it does and he was definitely suffering from Megalomania which many a Warlord had also fallen Victim to. Add that with the crazy shit his personal Doctor was prescribing him ever since the launch of the Invasion, the stress of leading a country through such trying times, and his own personal delusions that started to form, mix all of these factors in with a man who holds absolute power over a modern powerful country and you have a recipe for disaster.

As a disclaimer I would like to claim that the disaster wasn't wanting to take Stalingrad, but instead how the Wehrmacht was ordered to take it and how much they poured into what was clearly a lost cause as well as ignoring obvious Soviet build up. Despite common western belief that it was a dick swinging content because of the name of the town taking Stalingrad should of been priority. Because of the railway system taking Stalingrad would of effectively HALVED the entire Russian front and closed off the Caucuses to the reds.

But what about his terrible lack of flexibility while on defense?
 

Ernestas

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In all fairness I've always heard the Allies and Germans expected the Soviets to collapse after a few months of fighting due to loss of units and inability to replace and maintain a war footing...was quite wrong lol. But if they'd captured Moscow it could of caused issues due to it being a rail hub I guess.

Hopefully bad weather will reduce unit movement and reduce supply throughput or what ever it's replaced with, add in higher attrition it would make optimised supply lines important. Germans should stuggle in Russia during the winter but the Soviets should find it easier due to the shorter supply lines.


Well, I'm a genius then. I do not underestimate my enemies that much and thus I prepare for conflict properly. Lack of winter clothing was just sheer arrogance and hubris out of some German leaders which borderlines stupidity and insanity.
 

Ernestas

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US army had pretty major shortage of winter clothes by the time Battle of the Bulge was ongoing, due combination of ammunition, food and weapons taking priority over clothes, supply constraints since Normandy breakout and higher ups (especially Bradley) also protesting against adoption of new, superior field uniform because it looked ugly compared to the overcoat. The same US army which is often hailed as example of superior logistics over its opponents and allies, essentially drowned in artillery pieces, tanks and whatnot, but still had trouble replacing clothes or issuing proper winter clothes at the front.

And the fashionable part of German uniforms is arguable as they were not cut like latest suit coats from Dressman. While looking good in uniform certainly may have been part they hoped to achieve, it was never prioritised over the fact it is supposed to be a field uniform. With genuine feldbluses (and overcoats while at it) as opposed to majority of reproductions and movie props, you can actually raise your arm above your head without sleeve coming down like white tie dress and constrained shoulders.

(Unless you wear several layers of various shirts, sweaters and whatnot underneath at least.)


I'm sorry, but I cannot find it right now. The problem is that German winter clothing is scientifically far less superior to Russian great cloaks. There was a very interesting part then in a documentary a ''soldier'' was filmed in infrared camera and in this way, it was calculated how much each soldier emitted energy to the outside. German uniform had many ''weak spots'' while Russian winter clothes were barely visible. It's not surprise that Russia would be accustomed to winter climate in more ways than one, but it does not excuse a fact that German winter gear was inefficient even if they received one. In addition, it looking pretty just made matters worse, highlighting Germans focus on aesthetics rather than practicality.

I'm myself from northen climate zone and do you have any idea how fucking it can get? Especially during the early mornings after you wake up? I would fucking shoot a person responsible for designing my clothes myself and would take as much additional clothing as possible. During the winter, good clothes make the difference between having a pleasant walk in cool and beautiful environment and of constantly shacking and searching for warmth. Germans obviously did not knew how to design winter clothes and as you had said, a lot of nations were deluded and lacked wisdom to properly design their equipment.
 
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Sernista

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I'm sorry, but I cannot find it right now. The problem is that German winter clothing is scientifically far less superior to Russian great cloaks. There was a very interesting part then in a documentary a ''soldier'' was filmed in infrared camera and in this way, it was calculated how much each soldier emitted energy to the outside. German uniform had many ''weak spots'' while Russian winter clothes were barely visible. It's not surprise that Russia would be accustomed to winter climate in more ways than one, but it does not excuse a fact that German winter gear was inefficient even if they received one. In addition, it looking pretty just made matters worse, highlighting Germans focus on aesthetics rather than practicality.

I'm myself from northen climate zone and do you have any idea how fucking it can get? Especially during the early mornings after you wake up? I would fucking shoot a person responsible for designing my clothes myself and would take as much additional clothing as possible. During the winter, good clothes make the difference between having a pleasant walk in cool and beautiful environment and of constantly shacking and searching for warmth. Germans obviously did not knew how to design winter clothes and as you had said, a lot of nations were deluded and lacked wisdom to properly design their equipment.

Eh, at that point you're classifying everyone but the Russians as stupid and deluded, and the Russians as the minimum common sense - usually that's call to adjust the baseline, with the Germans and others all being doing the normal measures, and the Russians being really clever. As mentioned up-thread, most of the Scandinavians used uniforms with similar features to the Germans, and I don't think it'd be fair to call them of all people unfamiliar with cold!

The Germans suffered so badly not because they were terrible at designing winter outfits, but because it's really difficult to keep an army supplied over that distance where the infrastructure is not compatible with your own, while in a record breaking winter, and on top of it all fighting tooth and nail against a fiercely determined enemy with an equally committed and highly organized partisan movement behind your own lines. It's honestly unfair to both them and the Russians to insist otherwise - obviously it calls them idiots, but it also rather steals the credit for just how well the Russians managed things on their end.
 

Ernestas

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Everyone realizes that. What you fail to grasp is that winter clothes (and other winter equipment like shovels, plows, snow chains for tires, extra firewood, freeze resistant lubricants etc. etc.) all have weight and take up space. Someone or something is invariably going to have to carry all that equipment, so who's that going to be? Your frontline soldiers who are already burdened down by all their combat gear? Your rear area supply units that are always short on room to store things and who constantly has to monitor all stocks and transports in and out to prevent theft? Your logistics units, who's trucks and carts are already overburdened by the ammunition, fuel and food needed to keep your frontline troops in the fight?

In a summer offensive you simply can't afford to bring all the gear that you'll need in some 3-6 months time. You need to prioritize and in a war the priority will always be ammunition and fuel first, food second and everything else as a very distant third. That's why the German army didn't force everyone to pack a big bulky winter coat and a huge, unwieldy pair of winter boots as well as a few wool sweaters and long johns, because it would have weighed down the infantry too much (we are talking some 7-8kgs of extra gear) and wasn't as crucial as more ammunition. When the winter approached the winter gear was on its' way from Germay, it just got stuck in the rear area units because ammunition and fuel took priority in reaching the frontline, since without ammunition to fire at your enemy you are, invariably, dead or a PoW.



The German Winter Uniform was actually pretty good. Not as good as the Soviet one (for obvious reasons), but it was on par with the winter uniform of many other nations, most notably Sweden and Norway, both countries with a need for a functional winter uniform. In fact, the whole German uniform system designed by Hugo Boss was quite practical, utilizing several smart solutions for carrying gear and keeping warm/cool. That he made it look stylish while he was at it must be chalked up to his civilian occupation.


If you think that carrying clothes to frontline which have high chance not to end before cold hits is wasteful then this is just sheer hubris and poor planning. The truth is that you cannot achieve 100% efficiency and just carry ammo, fuel and tanks to the frontline and you must provide adequate amount of support equipment too. Lack of that killed German soldiers more than the enemy and this is just a simple result of reckless German strategy. Going full out means that you will suffer real bad if something goes wrong and it did.

In addition, all possible gear is not carried by infantry. Do they hand out all possible ammunition, food and fuel to combat units? Of course not, they re supply them reguraly and thus, winter clothes could easily be stored in supply depots.

Ammunition? Really? It just confirms my point that Germans were reckless and they pushed too much than it was reasonable. Furthermore, they were on the fucking offense. It's up to them to decide how much ammunition to use. Simple refusal to assault Crimea would have saved them immense amounts of supply space and had given Germans more than enough space to supply winter gear to the troops. In addition, Germans did not run short on such equipment. Rationing and careful shots would meant that essential supplies could reach frontline while wasting less ammo on hard shots. If not, then during the winter it's of course too late to do anything.
 
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Ernestas

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Eh, at that point you're classifying everyone but the Russians as stupid and deluded, and the Russians as the minimum common sense - usually that's call to adjust the baseline, with the Germans and others all being doing the normal measures, and the Russians being really clever. As mentioned up-thread, most of the Scandinavians used uniforms with similar features to the Germans, and I don't think it'd be fair to call them of all people unfamiliar with cold!

The Germans suffered so badly not because they were terrible at designing winter outfits, but because it's really difficult to keep an army supplied over that distance where the infrastructure is not compatible with your own, while in a record breaking winter, and on top of it all fighting tooth and nail against a fiercely determined enemy with an equally committed and highly organized partisan movement behind your own lines. It's honestly unfair to both them and the Russians to insist otherwise - obviously it calls them idiots, but it also rather steals the credit for just how well the Russians managed things on their end.


Well, if for you going out to winter war without clothes or claiming that you can beat USSR in few months is not outright idiocy then we are living on two separate worlds. Germans are often praised for too many things while in truth, their choices were foolish and lacked wisdom. For example? Why attack Yugoslavia and Greece? It only drained their supplies and delayed their crucial operation. Germans or in other world, Hitler were just gamblers. They just gambled with their fate of their nation and did not made proper preparations or ensured that they are as well prepared as possible. That's more, they were just so lucky...Victory defeated Germans which made them sloppy, relaxed.

Also, do not read into that is not there. All I said that Russians were far better with their winter gear. If that equals that Russians are only ones clever on this Earth, then this is just you.
 

Ernestas

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@Ernestas Well, call me a genius if it that it takes these days to realize that invasion of country of the size of USA
Well technically the USA was already at war with Germany as they really demonized it in their propaganda and they supported the allies against Germany by giving them Weapons and Supplies (Lend Lease). Germany decleared war on the USA to honour the alliance with Japan.

@Ernestas it would be nice idea to take some winter clothes with you...you know, just in case you won't make it before Christmas to fuck entirety of USSR.
You know that Germany survived 3 Winters in the USSR?

@3ishop In all fairness I've always heard the Allies and Germans expected the Soviets to collapse after a few months of fighting due to loss of units and inability to replace and maintain a war footing...was quite wrong lol. But if they'd captured Moscow it could of caused issues due to it being a rail hub I guess.
The reason the USSR didn'T collapse is because the allies really tried to keep them alive by giving them Lend Lease. They even invaded a neutral country for that (Iran)

@Gethsemani The German Winter Uniform was actually pretty good. Not as good as the Soviet one (for obvious reasons), but it was on par with the winter uniform of many other nations, most notably Sweden and Norway, both countries with a need for a functional winter uniform.
I heard that the german boots weren't that suited for the winter because the nails where sucking out the warmth.


I do not know why you even responded to me with these small things. Lend lease is just another big question of how actually useful it was. Only small portion of it was vital until Russian meat grinder struck and fate was sealed for Germany. In addition, of course winter did not wiped out Germans, but how many casualties and unneeded suffering could had been avoided? Thousands upon thousands froze to death and caused immense psychological damage to soldiers. That is without saying that I outright despise such incompetence and would had my planners shot on the spot, but at last, it's not Soviet Union.
 
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kmannkoopa

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From a game perspective it is really easy. As mentioned above, equipment includes everything: food, ammunition, clothing, and even fuel (I believe).

In game terms, winter increases the rate of equipment consumption -- Solders require more clothing, more fuel, and more food in particular. If you can't meet these requirements, your Soldiers are less effective. In real life, this would mean that even if you supplied winter clothing, you would not be supplying enough fuel, food, or ammunition. If the Soviets hadn't counter-attacked relentlessly, perhaps the Germans could have brought up winter clothing rather than ammunition resupply.

Whether a Soldier becomes a casualty due to cold, combat, or malnourished is largely irrelevant at the scale of this game.
 

Ernestas

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Hitler wasn't incompetent in the slightest, he ran circles around other European countries diplomatically getting major advantages for the axis before the war even started, he went from being homeless to bringing a country that was very much down and out to dominate almost the entirety of Europe, and it was his decision to follow the famous battle plan that was the German Miracle and Allied Catastrophe known as the Battle of France.

If you speak of his failure to recognize that the Soviet Union would not surrender then you speak with the advantage of hindsight. Japan, USA, Great Britain, French government in exile, and all axis minors thought that the Soviets would of given up after the pounding they were receiving it is a real credit to Stalin and the sacrifices and destruction of his own people that he was willing to put them through and the effectiveness of Soviet industrial mobilization that they not only stayed in the war but turned it around. As for the size of the country being a factor anything east of Stalingrad and Moscow did not hold much strategic value. True a lot of the industry was moved into the Urals because of the rapid German advance but this would not amount to much if they lost all the resources of western Russia, including the oil rich caucuses.

If you speak of Hitlers military decisions then you again speak with hindsight, as well as a lack of the knowledge of the approach Hitler had towards war, Hitler fought the war mainly concerned with the ground battles in Europe placing everything else in the sea and the air and land combat outside of Europe as secondary in priority. Even Churchill admitted that the United Kingdom would be fighting a losing battle and would have to come to terms with Germany (Favorable towards Germany) if the Nazis kept the pressure up on them and prioritized the Suez. He was BEGGING Roosevelt for help in the time period between the Fall of France and before Barbarossa was launched. He did not think England would be able to keep the fight up for the rest of 1941 maybe up until early 1942 at the latest ( mind you these were ENGLISH estimates not GERMAN ones ) And he very much through the Germans were going to keep the pressure up and were putting more effort into Africa than they actually were planning. Hitler was a Corporal and he approached the war as such he did not think on a global scale only a European ground scale. This is covered extensively in the book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer and is often considered one of the best sources of knowledge on Nazi Germany (I highly suggest the book) if your interested in learning more.

As for Hitlers poor tactical decision making in Russia like the Disastrous Stalingrad, Kursk, and Case Blue in general that also can not be evidence of Hitlers Incompetence. At that time absolute power had corrupted Hitler absolutely as it does and he was definitely suffering from Megalomania which many a Warlord had also fallen Victim to. Add that with the crazy shit his personal Doctor was prescribing him ever since the launch of the Invasion, the stress of leading a country through such trying times, and his own personal delusions that started to form, mix all of these factors in with a man who holds absolute power over a modern powerful country and you have a recipe for disaster.

As a disclaimer I would like to claim that the disaster wasn't wanting to take Stalingrad, but instead how the Wehrmacht was ordered to take it and how much they poured into what was clearly a lost cause as well as ignoring obvious Soviet build up. Despite common western belief that it was a dick swinging content because of the name of the town taking Stalingrad should of been priority. Because of the railway system taking Stalingrad would of effectively HALVED the entire Russian front and closed off the Caucuses to the reds.


I agree that Hitler was immense boon in early years to Germany, but afterwards, he caused far more damage than did good. He was useful because he saw how decadent, weak willed and foolish allies were at the time, but without that, he was deluded. He imagined that he is a master in every field and micromanaged everything much to the harm of German war effort. Not only that, his idiotic decision to be the head of land and airforce sapped his strength, made him a shadow of a man he once was. I take joy in knowing that Hitler suffered greatly every day of his career even if that meant he started to ''talk with other world'' after failed assassination attempt.


No, I speak from pragmatic standpoint. It was obvious that USSR is a massive force. Yes, it had poor reputation as a fighting force, but Hitler should had known better than to underestimate Russian ability to catch up and to withstand suffering. He was student of history after all and this arrogance is unforgivable. It's a mistake with no excuses. Second, then you are about to start massive invasion which would decide faith of you nation, that you do? Do you focus on minor fronts and thus waste precious time and resources? Do you completely fail to invest in intelligence effort? At least get a single git in entire Germany who were in Russia and could tell you about poor state of infrastructure there? No, Germans did nothing like that and they completely failed in understanding that they are fighting against and this is the first principle of offense. Know against whom you are fighting against if you wish to win.


Thank you for recommendation, but once again, do not underestimate your enemies. Strike with ruthless determination, do not give enemy time for respite. These principles were basic of war long before Hitler even started WW2. If he would had studied Sun Tzu or as much other literature available, he would know that. His foolish choice to split his attention, was his downfall. Yes, time he attacked USSR was the best time available and his instincts were correct, but the problem is: he doomed himself with it. Germans did not considered at that massive danger they were since Stalin successfully outmaneuvered entirety of Germany and Germans were just too drunk on massive success they had achieved and without ever reading Sun Tzu, Machiavelli they had not idea how to treat luck factor in their campaign. Once again, poor education and discipline on nazies were their downfall.

I personally felt that because I have luxury of video games, but Germans had war planners. Just simulate game over game and you will learn eventually that focus on too many fronts brings highest risk possible, especially numerically superior foe which have superior production capabilities. I just say simple lessons that Germans had to know if they were competent as they often are seen. Personally, I would have kept pressure despite ''feeling'' that time to strike USSR is now. I would had risked Soviet invasion on a simple basis that I cannot beat USSR any way with allies still unbeaten. One year delay through which I would had tried to apply maximum possible pressure to Britain would had meant that I would had a huge chance in knocking out the war and thus beating allies. With open hands, Stalin might be afraid to engage such successful force, but in any way, Hitler would had been free to attack USSR. He did not thought much of them and war with them now would had been far harder, but its ultimate outcome far more uncertain. I on the other hand, would try to keep Stalin satisfied and try to redirect his attention to Asia or whatever. He did not had any real claims there anyways and it's likely that he would just changed his plans with mutual border disarmament. This is all speculations of course, but essence is clear. To overstretch your forces is extremely reckless and was a main cause of many great defeats through the history. In addition, Germans should have know better than to be defeated by victory and they needed to go that extra mile to achieve victory. And as Sun Tzu says, ones who cannot spare extra expenses to ensure victory do not deserve to win.


I do not care how you value Hitler's tactical decisions. I said that at later stages he went mad and was a detriment to Germany. I had explained why he was stupid before he actually went bat shit crazy like taking way too much responsibility, letting victory to defeat him and etc.


Stalingrad was essential town, I agree, but at that point there was signs that it won't be an easy pick as before. At that point we cannot blame Wehrmacht for actually trying to take it. It spend phenomenal amount of artillery and air bombardment upon that city and if Soviet resistance would had been as before, they would had taken that town. Ignoring it and actually going for oil fields left nazies vurlnerable to large scale counter attack which would trap entire army in unreachable territory. Stalingrad was a major Red Army staging post which ensured their operation in the region. Take it and not only you make Red army advance impossible, but also you have nice defensive line there which would allow for easy oil grab there. The problem was that nazies choose their last battlefield with Soviets there they had excelled and if you know anything about the war, it's extremely stupid thing to do. To allow yourself into final confrontation on your enemy's terms... But once again, victory had defeated Germany way before it had invaded USSR.


In the end, we agree upon many things.The only difference is in perspective if there is any. I just say that Germans needed to push for total victory, they needed to be prepared even greater price for victory, but that is the difference in mentality. In German culture during ww2 was a concept which should be avoided. To me, it's a necessity of any large and future defying war and it's likely that people like me at command of Wehrmacht would have ordered to cease all non-essential production and transfer factories to war production, but once again, Germans are not Slavs and thus they lack natural resilience and dedication to their goals. I hate splitting my forces and I advocate in finishing industrially and numerically superior allies before undertaking any other task and in my head, I would had been under mental clock to do it as fast as possible. Knowing that Germans should have known that threat USA poses and that they simply cannot win prolonged war at seas, it's only natural to go as hard as possible against them as soon as possible. If you do not agree with me, be free to say that. I merely express my opinion which often gets everybody pissed off. Probably because of how aggressive at discussing I'm. :)
 
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Ernestas

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Well, good supply system should have sub-categories what you are actually transporting. Lack of ammo or fuel does not mean that you loose your troops. You merely cease attacking with certain combat units and put them on low priority to receive supplies. You merely prioritize and start rationing that you got. If attacked, it means lower efficiency at fighting until certain point. Lack of fuel means that you likely cannot move much, just 100 km max or so and then you are completely stuck and left to encircled and forced to surrender over time. Of course, it's another question how bad situation is. Lack of supplies does not mean at all that you are in shitloads of trouble. It merely means that your potential is lower and that you have to use your meager resources better. After being pushed to the limit, then situation becomes a lot worse.
 

jcd000

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Hitler was never a boon, rather an immense minus for Germany right from the start.

He did see the allies as weak willed etc. but it was just his (wrong) opinion. They did not want war at the time and were prepared to back down quite a lot to not have to rearm and do war.

So what did he do? He decided that the recovery game will not apply to him. He did not care about costs and he geared Germany for war thus turning the economy into an unbalanced mess that could only be sustained by war & pillage.
So the choice had to be between war or collapse. Bit unwise IMO.

Then while at war, he did quite a lot bad decisions that sealed Germany's fate (coz being the 3rd industrial power in the world fighting the 1st,2nd and 4th at the same time is not enough of a challenge)

Only good that came of it was 70+ years later, our chance to play as a gung-ho military dictatorship and try to conquer the world via force of arms. Proved entertaining though :)
 

ConjurerDragon

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Well, call me a genius if it that it takes these days to realize that invasion of country of the size of USA will take more than a year and it would be nice idea to take some winter clothes with you...you know, just in case you won't make it before Christmas to fuck entirety of USSR.
...

That has nothing to do with genius and a lot with hindsight.

Without our todays knowledge you have Soviets that appear as military morons who executed a majority of their experienced officers to be replaced by rookies and made a show of themselves in the finnish winterwar where despite a huge numerical superiority and with enough equipment to bury the finns they still managed to suffer enough setbacks and losses to look like amateurs.

And you have Germany where the military is well aware of several of the soviets bases, simply because german soliders were testing german equipment there while Germany was still forbidden to have e.g. an airforce or tanks under the Versailles Treaty. A Germany that won in Poland in a few weeks and that surprised itself by an astonishing success against the western allies in France.

They - in part correctly - expected for any non-russian country in the Soviet Union to be glad to get rid of the soviets and to support the axis (e.g. the baltic states or Ukraine) and they remembered the 1916 "rübenwinter" where the english blockade lead to the starvation of civilians in the german empire due to a lack of food as Germany was in WW1 and in WW2 a net importeur of food.

And yet, despite all that success and high expectations to get a "peace of Brest-Litowsk"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk
out of the Soviets like in WW1 (and noone planned to march through to Wladivostok - they expected Stalin to be removed by his own and to enter negotiations when roughtly the line Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad would have fallen) and practically drunken from victories they still planned for operation barbarossa to take 6 months - longer than any campaign lasted in that war up to that day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#German_invasion_plans
 
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Ernestas

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That has nothing to do with genius and a lot with hindsight.

Without our todays knowledge you have Soviets that appear as military morons who executed a majority of their experienced officers to be replaced by rookies and made a show of themselves in the finnish winterwar where despite a huge numerical superiority and with enough equipment to bury the finns they still managed to suffer enough setbacks and losses to look like amateurs.

And you have Germany where the military is well aware of several of the soviets bases, simply because german soliders were testing german equipment there while Germany was still forbidden to have e.g. an airforce or tanks under the Versailles Treaty. A Germany that won in Poland in a few weeks and that surprised itself by an astonishing success against the western allies in France.

They - in part correctly - expected for any non-russian country in the Soviet Union to be glad to get rid of the soviets and to support the axis (e.g. the baltic states or Ukraine) and they remembered the 1916 "rübenwinter" where the english blockade lead to the starvation of civilians in the german empire due to a lack of food as Germany was in WW1 and in WW2 a net importeur of food.

And yet, despite all that success and high expectations to get a "peace of Brest-Litowsk"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk
out of the Soviets like in WW1 (and noone planned to march through to Wladivostok - they expected Stalin to be removed by his own and to enter negotiations when roughtly the line Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad would have fallen) and practically drunken from victories they still planned for operation barbarossa to take 6 months - longer than any campaign lasted in that war up to that day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#German_invasion_plans


One then does not understands history. Thinking that you can just march into Soviet Union was simply wrong. In addition, splitting your focus to Leningrad also was pointless. If Hitler would had taken important lessons from it, he would understand that it's not first time then Russians managed to beat down far superior foe and that they will try to drag out conflict as long as possible and if anything they are famous for is tenacity. Motivating them to fight to the end against nazies genocidal march was just like pointing loaded gun to your head... Secondly, underestimating your foe is one of the gravest mistakes that you could have done. This cannot be excused and it's not an advantage of hindsight. Germans knew fell that it will be the largest operation yet and still they had failed the very first principle of war: know against whom you are fighting. They let their arrogance, hubris, ideology and bias to get first of clear thinking and careful planning.

Btw: you might point to certain expectations of Germans, but you forget one crucial thing: Hitler. He declared from the start that this will be a total war with only total victory for them. He literally burned all bridges before him and he would not had signed anything less than a total annihilation of USSR like he had planned to.
 
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Ernestas

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Hitler was never a boon, rather an immense minus for Germany right from the start.

He did see the allies as weak willed etc. but it was just his (wrong) opinion. They did not want war at the time and were prepared to back down quite a lot to not have to rearm and do war.

So what did he do? He decided that the recovery game will not apply to him. He did not care about costs and he geared Germany for war thus turning the economy into an unbalanced mess that could only be sustained by war & pillage.
So the choice had to be between war or collapse. Bit unwise IMO.

Then while at war, he did quite a lot bad decisions that sealed Germany's fate (coz being the 3rd industrial power in the world fighting the 1st,2nd and 4th at the same time is not enough of a challenge)

Only good that came of it was 70+ years later, our chance to play as a gung-ho military dictatorship and try to conquer the world via force of arms. Proved entertaining though :)


But how we would evaluate Hitler if he would had stopped and never went for policy research called: ''Danzig or war''? The fact is that he saw a lot of inherent weakness of the allies and know on intuitive basis that to do. He was a gambler and Germany needed a gambler since they would had never had the strength to do that they had done otherwise.
 

jcd000

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But how we would evaluate Hitler if he would had stopped and never went for policy research called: ''Danzig or war''? The fact is that he saw a lot of inherent weakness of the allies and know on intuitive basis that to do. He was a gambler and Germany needed a gambler since they would had never had the strength to do that they had done otherwise.

He couldn't back down at that point. His economy would implode and his government collapse and he would lose his position. Only option was to absorb more and more into Germany (and also take more and more from people within his jurisdiction that he decided he did not like - forbidden topic), all the while keeping his people united against common enemies so that his Germany would stand fast and not understand how flawed this policy was.
This could never end well actually.
 

Ernestas

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He couldn't back down at that point. His economy would implode and his government collapse and he would lose his position. Only option was to absorb more and more into Germany (and also take more and more from people within his jurisdiction that he decided he did not like - forbidden topic), all the while keeping his people united against common enemies so that his Germany would stand fast and not understand how flawed this policy was.
This could never end well actually.


Not true, Hitler was at the second highest point of his power back then and debt incurred modernizing his army could be easily repaid in decade to come and that's without actually going into austerity budget. Allies hoped that this would buy them peace, Germany was returned almost everything it considered as robbed off and Stalin would not had a chance to invade Europe. Actually this is the point I love to stop playing aggressively as Germans since I know when to stop pushing my luck against decedent and weak powers. You cannot ever to push them into corner if you wish them to bend. This was first grand miscalculation of Hitler fortunately or sadly.
 
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