Winterclothes - As support material in winterwars

[Agga36]

Hey,
what do you think about implementing a demand on winterclothes - for fighting a winterwar.
Like for Germany - If you want to conquer russia

 

[Caesar15]

It's been discussed before and the result was the devs saying it was unnecessary because everyone would do it anyway.

 

[mdw1985]

Hey,
what do you think about implementing a demand on winterclothes - for fighting a winterwar.
Like for Germany - If you want to conquer russia

It is not a producable item, but simulated. Winter makes equipment break down faster, so you need to produce more of the items, when fighting in snow and cold. Therefore you have more efforts concerning the supply of your troops...

 

[steve213]

you could model it with a need for more support equipment in difficult conditions.

 

[LordOfWar16]

you could model it with a need for more support equipment in difficult conditions.

It is already simulated by the equipment attrition increase in rough terrain and/or conditions. In winter you need to resupply much more equipment than you have to in summer for example. Infantry Equipment is an package consisting of everything an soilder needs, including food, drinks, spades and winterclothing if you want to think about it that way.

 

[steve213]

so then were good. (Go Coogs)

 

[Streydeymn]

It wasn't like Germans didn't have winter clothes, they were just stuck behind front, because priority had ammo and fuel. So I hope there is serious demand for supply in winter

 

[Ernestas]

And their winter clothes just sucked anyways. Barely enough to keep soldier alive against elements.

 

[Caesar15]

I wonder if the attrition impact is enough to force plays to rush offensives or at least halt any offense during the winter.

 

[Ernestas]

Well, we know that offenses will halt at winter and autumn due to weather. Attrition is easily modded, but I doubt that Paradox would create a system which would allow to simulate extremes. It will probably be a barely noticable drain on your resources.

 

[Ernestas]

Simple reading on this issue shows that winter was minor issue. It's just incompetence of Hitler who caused its catastrophic effects. Game won't simulate Nazies stupidity in proper manner though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Winter

 

[Rudolf Hessbart]

Trust me. If you think national socialist are stupid you will be the first one they get. The only reason they spread this cliche is because your government wants to demonize them.

 

[wright1331]

Trust me. If you think national socialist are stupid you will be the first one they get. The only reason they spread this cliche is because your government wants to demonize them.

The Victors Write History

But the supply system should mimic winters better by having more attrition, and we all know that sending supplies deep into the SU always is a problem in HOI games.

 

[Gethsemani]

It is already simulated by the equipment attrition increase in rough terrain and/or conditions. In winter you need to resupply much more equipment than you have to in summer for example. Infantry Equipment is an package consisting of everything an soilder needs, including food, drinks, spades and winterclothing if you want to think about it that way.

Not to mention stuff like oil, fire wood, lubricants, shovels, skis/ snow shoes and all those other thins that might seem sort of unnecessary in the summer but is absolutely crucial for basic survival and movement during the winter. I distinctly recall when we got caught out at -17 degrees Celsius during one of our exercises and had water freezing over in our water bottles and assault rifles jamming due to the internal mechanisms icing up for those that skimped on weapon cleaning.

As you say, supply demand goes up during the winter months and it is a good way to both emulate reality and to get a good approximation of the Wehrmacht's problem with issuing winter equipment, since increased supply demand means more strain on supply lines.

 

[Ernestas]

Trust me. If you think national socialist are stupid you will be the first one they get. The only reason they spread this cliche is because your government wants to demonize them.

Well, call me a genius if it that it takes these days to realize that invasion of country of the size of USA will take more than a year and it would be nice idea to take some winter clothes with you...you know, just in case you won't make it before Christmas to fuck entirety of USSR.

Btw: at least Germans froze to death looking pretty. German efficiency sadly was sleeping then fashion designers murdered thousands of German soldiers in making their winter uniforms look fashionable...

 

[Ernestas]

Not to mention stuff like oil, fire wood, lubricants, shovels, skis/ snow shoes and all those other thins that might seem sort of unnecessary in the summer but is absolutely crucial for basic survival and movement during the winter. I distinctly recall when we got caught out at -17 degrees Celsius during one of our exercises and had water freezing over in our water bottles and assault rifles jamming due to the internal mechanisms icing up for those that skimped on weapon cleaning.

As you say, supply demand goes up during the winter months and it is a good way to both emulate reality and to get a good approximation of the Wehrmacht's problem with issuing winter equipment, since increased supply demand means more strain on supply lines.

I believe it will be stimulated by halting division movements to halt, increasing attrition loss and thus increase supply demand. I would rather prefer to see good mud/winter system which would properly simulate how fucking awful roads are in the summer, early spring and only respite you can get it in summer and start of the winter.

 

[3ishop]

Well, call me a genius if it that it takes these days to realize that invasion of country of the size of USA will take more than a year and it would be nice idea to take some winter clothes with you...you know, just in case you won't make it before Christmas to fuck entirety of USSR.

In all fairness I've always heard the Allies and Germans expected the Soviets to collapse after a few months of fighting due to loss of units and inability to replace and maintain a war footing...was quite wrong lol. But if they'd captured Moscow it could of caused issues due to it being a rail hub I guess.

Hopefully bad weather will reduce unit movement and reduce supply throughput or what ever it's replaced with, add in higher attrition it would make optimised supply lines important. Germans should stuggle in Russia during the winter but the Soviets should find it easier due to the shorter supply lines.

 

[Mjarr]

Well, call me a genius if it that it takes these days to realize that invasion of country of the size of USA will take more than a year and it would be nice idea to take some winter clothes with you...you know, just in case you won't make it before Christmas to fuck entirety of USSR.

Btw: at least Germans froze to death looking pretty. German efficiency sadly was sleeping then fashion designers murdered thousands of German soldiers in making their winter uniforms look fashionable...

US army had pretty major shortage of winter clothes by the time Battle of the Bulge was ongoing, due combination of ammunition, food and weapons taking priority over clothes, supply constraints since Normandy breakout and higher ups (especially Bradley) also protesting against adoption of new, superior field uniform because it looked ugly compared to the overcoat. The same US army which is often hailed as example of superior logistics over its opponents and allies, essentially drowned in artillery pieces, tanks and whatnot, but still had trouble replacing clothes or issuing proper winter clothes at the front.

And the fashionable part of German uniforms is arguable as they were not cut like latest suit coats from Dressman. While looking good in uniform certainly may have been part they hoped to achieve, it was never prioritised over the fact it is supposed to be a field uniform. With genuine feldbluses (and overcoats while at it) as opposed to majority of reproductions and movie props, you can actually raise your arm above your head without sleeve coming down like white tie dress and constrained shoulders.

(Unless you wear several layers of various shirts, sweaters and whatnot underneath at least.)

 

[Gethsemani]

Well, call me a genius if it that it takes these days to realize that invasion of country of the size of USA will take more than a year and it would be nice idea to take some winter clothes with you...you know, just in case you won't make it before Christmas to fuck entirety of USSR.

Everyone realizes that. What you fail to grasp is that winter clothes (and other winter equipment like shovels, plows, snow chains for tires, extra firewood, freeze resistant lubricants etc. etc.) all have weight and take up space. Someone or something is invariably going to have to carry all that equipment, so who's that going to be? Your frontline soldiers who are already burdened down by all their combat gear? Your rear area supply units that are always short on room to store things and who constantly has to monitor all stocks and transports in and out to prevent theft? Your logistics units, who's trucks and carts are already overburdened by the ammunition, fuel and food needed to keep your frontline troops in the fight?

In a summer offensive you simply can't afford to bring all the gear that you'll need in some 3-6 months time. You need to prioritize and in a war the priority will always be ammunition and fuel first, food second and everything else as a very distant third. That's why the German army didn't force everyone to pack a big bulky winter coat and a huge, unwieldy pair of winter boots as well as a few wool sweaters and long johns, because it would have weighed down the infantry too much (we are talking some 7-8kgs of extra gear) and wasn't as crucial as more ammunition. When the winter approached the winter gear was on its' way from Germay, it just got stuck in the rear area units because ammunition and fuel took priority in reaching the frontline, since without ammunition to fire at your enemy you are, invariably, dead or a PoW.

Btw: at least Germans froze to death looking pretty. German efficiency sadly was sleeping then fashion designers murdered thousands of German soldiers in making their winter uniforms look fashionable...

The German Winter Uniform was actually pretty good. Not as good as the Soviet one (for obvious reasons), but it was on par with the winter uniform of many other nations, most notably Sweden and Norway, both countries with a need for a functional winter uniform. In fact, the whole German uniform system designed by Hugo Boss was quite practical, utilizing several smart solutions for carrying gear and keeping warm/cool. That he made it look stylish while he was at it must be chalked up to his civilian occupation.

 

[Rudolf Hessbart]

@Ernestas Well, call me a genius if it that it takes these days to realize that invasion of country of the size of USA
Well technically the USA was already at war with Germany as they really demonized it in their propaganda and they supported the allies against Germany by giving them Weapons and Supplies (Lend Lease). Germany decleared war on the USA to honour the alliance with Japan.

@Ernestas it would be nice idea to take some winter clothes with you...you know, just in case you won't make it before Christmas to fuck entirety of USSR.
You know that Germany survived 3 Winters in the USSR?

@3ishop In all fairness I've always heard the Allies and Germans expected the Soviets to collapse after a few months of fighting due to loss of units and inability to replace and maintain a war footing...was quite wrong lol. But if they'd captured Moscow it could of caused issues due to it being a rail hub I guess.
The reason the USSR didn'T collapse is because the allies really tried to keep them alive by giving them Lend Lease. They even invaded a neutral country for that (Iran)

@Gethsemani The German Winter Uniform was actually pretty good. Not as good as the Soviet one (for obvious reasons), but it was on par with the winter uniform of many other nations, most notably Sweden and Norway, both countries with a need for a functional winter uniform.
I heard that the german boots weren't that suited for the winter because the nails where sucking out the warmth.