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Lordhen

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Day 40 of Winter War, January 8th 1940

The Finns have astounded the world by beating back most of the Soviet incursions on their territory, including all of the most deadly ones.

Winter War Army Operations

The Soviet holdouts on the Ratte road surrender around Lakes Kuivasjarvi and Kuomasjarvi (near Captain Mäkinen’s original roadblock). The Finns will take a few days to finish off the remaining Soviet stragglers who ran into the woods or are still hiding in abandoned equipment on the Ratte road. In essence, though, they now have completely eliminated what had been considered the most dangerous advance into the country.

Casualties of the 44th Rifle Division totalled over 5,000 men. All told, in the Suomussalmi battles, the Soviets lost 13,000-27,500 dead or missing, with 2,100 prisoners, 71 field guns, 260 trucks, 1,170 horses, 29 anti-tank guns, and 43 tanks captured.

While it is an epic defeat, the Soviet Union is far from defeated.
 

mccarty.geoff

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Casualty statistics during WW2 are largely mythological. The battles of Suomussalmi makes a good case study on which force in this war were more exaggerative of friendly and enemy combat losses. The Russian records claim 13k Soviet losses while the Finns claim 27.5k. Finnish losses; Russian claim 2,700, Finns claim 750. I believe the Soviet figures are more realistic. In the last 10 years or so the Finnish authors have really been churning out some BS on this war. Still it was an excellent example of guerrilla tactics by the Finns. The Soviets were dis-coordinated and lazy about route security. Instead of encircling and destroying the Finnish forces south of Suomussalmi an entire Rifle Division was encircled instead.
 

Lordhen

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Casualty statistics during WW2 are largely mythological. The battles of Suomussalmi makes a good case study on which force in this war were more exaggerative of friendly and enemy combat losses. The Russian records claim 13k Soviet losses while the Finns claim 27.5k. Finnish losses; Russian claim 2,700, Finns claim 750. I believe the Soviet figures are more realistic. In the last 10 years or so the Finnish authors have really been churning out some BS on this war. Still it was an excellent example of guerrilla tactics by the Finns. The Soviets were dis-coordinated and lazy about route security. Instead of encircling and destroying the Finnish forces south of Suomussalmi an entire Rifle Division was encircled instead.
Well if we go by the Wikipedia article about the Battle of Suomussalmi the reason why the Finish Army had fewer death toll than the Soviet Army is:

- Finnish troops having higher mobility due to skis and sleds; in contrast, Soviet heavy equipment confined them to roads.

- The Soviet objective to cut Finland in half across the Oulu region – while appearing reasonable on a map, this was inherently unrealistic, as the region was mostly forested marshland, with its road network consisting mainly of logging trails. Mechanized divisions had to rely on these, becoming easy targets for the mobile Finnish ski troops.

- Finnish strategy was flexible and often unorthodox, for example, targeting Soviet field kitchens, which demoralized Soviet soldiers fighting in a sub-Arctic winter.

- Soviet army being poorly equipped, especially with regard to winter camouflage clothing

- In contrast, Finnish troops' equipment were well suited for warfare in deep snow and freezing temperatures.

- Finnish army had very high morale: they were defending their homes. Soviet troops had only political reasons for their attack, and consequently lost their will to fight soon despite continual efforts by Soviet propagandists.

- Soviet counter-intelligence failures: Finnish troops often intercepted the Soviet communications, which relied heavily on standard phone lines.

- Simplicity where needed, as the final assault was a simple head-on charge, decreasing the chances of tactical errors. Rough weather also favoured comparatively simple plans.

- The Soviet Red Army was still suffering from the aftermaths of Stalin Army Purge in the 1930s, with many replacement officers being incompetent and inexperienced.
 

WandererRTF

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Casualty statistics during WW2 are largely mythological. The battles of Suomussalmi makes a good case study on which force in this war were more exaggerative of friendly and enemy combat losses. The Russian records claim 13k Soviet losses while the Finns claim 27.5k. Finnish losses; Russian claim 2,700, Finns claim 750. I believe the Soviet figures are more realistic.
Might be for Red Army's losses. Then again it might not. The Soviet numbers however are certainly not realistic for the Finnish losses. All the casualties the Finns suffered in the Winter War can be found and traced. It is public archive.
In the last 10 years or so the Finnish authors have really been churning out some BS on this war.
Care to provide any evidence to support this allegation? Preferably in some other thread.
 

mccarty.geoff

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It's been done before: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=212435
The problem comes to semantics as what constitutes the battles of Suomussalmi. Naturally, the casualties should include the Soviet losses on the Raate road but, the National Archives and Finnish authors will only use Finnish losses from around the village. It is an important case study because 10-20% of total Soviet combat deaths occured here.
 

WandererRTF

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It's been done before: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=212435
The problem comes to semantics as what constitutes the battles of Suomussalmi. Naturally, the casualties should include the Soviet losses on the Raate road but, the National Archives and Finnish authors will only use Finnish losses from around the village. It is an important case study because 10-20% of total Soviet combat deaths occured here.
All the data is publicly available. All the Finnish casualties are listed in the database. Most of the war diaries are publicly accessible too. You can go through them if you like. So if you disagree of the numbers it is up to you to prove them wrong.
 

Lordhen

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Day 41 of Winter War, January 9th 1940

The Soviets issue a communiqué admitting that they had to retreat from Suomussalmi.

Winter War Army Operations

The Finns once again stage a secret operation and cut the Leningrad-Murmansk railway.

Winter War Air Operations

Soviet bombers raid six small towns in Finland.

Winter War Peace Talks

There are unofficial peace talks in Stockholm between Hella Wuolijoki, an Estonian-born Finnish writer, and Alexandra Kollontai, the Soviet ambassador to Sweden. Both had been friends of Lenin.

In addition, the Finnish Foreign Affairs Committee seeks US mediation.
 

WandererRTF

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Hella Wuolijoki was actually an ardent Marxist who had long been suspected of having had connections to the NKVD (i.e. being what is known as an illegal resident). Her contributions towards the peace were relatively minor. However the effort was noted in some measure. She ended up being imprisoned in 1943 for treason (for having knowingly aided Soviet saboteurs & spies in Finland). Only her political connections kept her alive (for example the spy she helped was shot). But it is probably telling that after the war she became one of the leading figures of the Finnish People's Democratic League (i.e. communists).
 

Happy_Lonely

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Casualty statistics during WW2 are largely mythological. The battles of Suomussalmi makes a good case study on which force in this war were more exaggerative of friendly and enemy combat losses. The Russian records claim 13k Soviet losses while the Finns claim 27.5k. Finnish losses; Russian claim 2,700, Finns claim 750. I believe the Soviet figures are more realistic. In the last 10 years or so the Finnish authors have really been churning out some BS on this war. Still it was an excellent example of guerrilla tactics by the Finns. The Soviets were dis-coordinated and lazy about route security. Instead of encircling and destroying the Finnish forces south of Suomussalmi an entire Rifle Division was encircled instead.

Well, we are talking about a highly sensitive subject here. It is no wonder, for the people who fought there and especially people in charge of leading the battle, lower friendly casualties and higher enemy casualties can make the difference between "a job well done" or "a disaster". Especially Colonel Siilasvuo made a huge PR stunt by publishing his memoirs of the battle as soon as 1940. I think we should understand why this kind of exaggeration was made, but also acknowledge it meaning we have to be skeptical of what has been written in the past.

I believe the Finnish archives are very reliable, when it comes to numbers of Finnish casualties. That's the benefit of how the war went; Finnish troops were able to keep their records quite diligently and essentially no records were lost. This is in contrast to for example the East front after 1941, when both German and Soviet sides lost tremendous amounts of whole Divisions and even larger formations.

When looking at "Battles of Suomussalmi", the Finnish archives show Finnish losses to have been quite close to what you state as the "Russian claim" (2700). For example, the figure given in "Raaka tie Raatteeseen", the 2012 book written by a Finn, cited in the discussion on the thread you posted, gives Finnish casualties by January 3rd as 1317. If you combine this with the casualties estimated in the same thread (by another Finn, based on the Finnish archives)(edit: for the time period of Jan 4th-10th), you arrive at over 2000 Finnish casualties. Clearly, modern Finnish authors give numbers that are quite close to Russian claims. So I really would like to know, who are these "the Finnish authors", who have been "churning out some BS". It is entirely possible that some are still using outdated figures, but I would expect it to be because they are lazy (not wanting to do the counting themselves), not some intentional attempt at misinformation.

Whether battles of Suomussalmi should be considered a single battle or a series of battles has nothing to do with this question. I believe we all agree that Finnish and Soviet losses should be counted on equal basis: if you count Soviet losses for the whole period until ~the 10th of January, so should you count Finnish losses. It is possible some Finnish historians at some point have made mistakes in this kind of calculation, but let's make sure we don't do the same. From the Finnish point of view it makes sense to divide the battle in two phases, but it is irrelevant for the counting of total casualties. While liquidating the elements of 44th was harder and costlier than battles against 163rd, the casualty ratio is still in generally the same range.

I think the Soviet forces in general were incapable of fighting in the terrain. Their whole supply was reliant on the road coming from Raate, and their inability to fight outside the road made securing this road impossible. So it was definitely right decision by 163rd to not attempt any further offensives once they became out of supply. Ultimately it wasn't down to what I would call guerrilla tactics. With the use of terrain, Finnish forces were able to pin down much larger Soviet forces, divide them in small pieces and use concentration of force once the Soviets were immobilized in small pockets. I think this is in contrast with typical guerrilla warfare, which is more about hit and run, in order to weaken enemy through attrition.
 

Lordhen

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Day 42 of Winter War, January 10th 1940

Some 350 Hungarian men begin military training. They are to be formed into the Hungarian Volunteer Detached Battalion. It will be commanded by Lieutenant Imre Kémeri Nagy and have 24 officers, 52 NCOs, 2 doctors and 2 Padres.

Winter War Army Operations

The Soviet command is consumed with recriminations about the defeats suffered to date. It is not a time for grand operations. Much of the rest of January is consumed with court martials, command changes and replacement of lost troops.
 

Herbert West

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Day 42 of Winter War, January 10th 1940

Some 350 Hungarian men begin military training. They are to be formed into the Hungarian Volunteer Detached Battalion. It will be commanded by Lieutenant Imre Kémeri Nagy and have 24 officers, 52 NCOs, 2 doctors and 2 Padres.

Importantly though, at least according to Wikipedia, they do this in Hungary, not Finland.
 

Kovax

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Importantly though, at least according to Wikipedia, they do this in Hungary, not Finland.
There are distant language ties between Finnish and Hungarian, although so distant that there are basically no words left in common. They still seem to regard each other as "distant cousins" to some degree, so the volunteer effort is no surprise at the grass roots level. I can also see how the political strata would view and allow it as a way of gaining some real combat experience for the inevitable confrontation between German Fascism and Soviet Communism, with the Balkan states caught up as pawns or victims between the two.
 

bz249

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There are distant language ties between Finnish and Hungarian, although so distant that there are basically no words left in common. They still seem to regard each other as "distant cousins" to some degree, so the volunteer effort is no surprise at the grass roots level. I can also see how the political strata would view and allow it as a way of gaining some real combat experience for the inevitable confrontation between German Fascism and Soviet Communism, with the Balkan states caught up as pawns or victims between the two.

It is about so related as Hindi and English (two Indoeuropean language) based on the time of the branches. :)
From the Winter War movie i nevertheless understood the word Käsikranaatti since it is one of those basic words which seems to be common (indicating that hand granades are old Finnoungrian hunting equipment)
 

Lordhen

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Day 43 of Winter War, January 11th 1940

Kombrig Vinogradov, Commissar Parkhomenko, and Chief of Staff Volkov of the 44th Rifle Division each are found guilty by a court-martial and sentenced to death. The charges are irrelevant, the outcome was preordained by the military defeat, but they are accused among other things of leaving behind wounded to die. They are executed on 11 January 1940 in Vazhenvaara by firing squad in front of what remains of their troops. The commissar of the Ninth Army, Furt, is appointed the acting commander of the 44th Rifle Division, which must be completely rebuilt.

Winter War Army Operations: The Finnish IV Corps (12th Infantry Division and 13th Infantry Division) surround the 34th Tank Brigade, Soviet 168th Division and 18th Rifle Division of Soviet 8th Army north of Lake Ladoga. They call this the "Great Mottie of Kitilä." The weather is good enough for the Soviets to supply the pocket by air, but the men inside are miserable and immobilized. The Finns beat off a Soviet relief attempt and set to work cutting up the pocket as they did near Suomussalmi. Major Matti Aarnio of the 4th Jaeger battalion leads the effort and becomes famous as "Motti-Matti."

At Salla, the Soviets try another attack toward the Kemijarvi-Tornio railway but make a little progress.

Winter War Air Operations

At frozen Lake Kemi, the Swedish volunteer air group, Flygflottilj 19, starts off with a dozen obsolete Gladiator Gloster fighters and 4 Hart light bombers. They are a good match for Soviet airplanes, however, which in general are also obsolete by current standards.
 

WandererRTF

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On January 11th the Finnish Navy decides to send more help to the Viipuri sector (it took until 16th before the 'help' arrived). After the small MTB and submarine contingent was withdrawn there really was just one armed icebreaker ('Murtaja' ~ 'breaker', 2 x 75mm guns) operating there. Now the Finnish Navy sends in another, Tarmo (four 120mm guns - Vickers 1905 model - in two twin mounts). This may not sound much but it in fact was a considerable move since ice was already starting to cause trouble to freighters and the few capable icebreakers Finns had would have been sorely needed in keeping open the sea lanes towards Sweden. It didn't help that several ships had run aground and needed help too. All actual warships (and other ships which could be seen qualifying as such if you didn't look at them too closely) were kept in either escort duty or in readiness against potential Soviet landing operations. Tarmo made two sorties on 17th and 18th against the Soviet ship (freighter Kazakhstan) stuck on ice next to the island of Someri (Sommers) but neither really resulted in anything as the equipment, especially the old guns and ranging systems, malfunctioned.
 

Avernite

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It is about so related as Hindi and English (two Indoeuropean language) based on the time of the branches. :)
From the Winter War movie i nevertheless understood the word Käsikranaatti since it is one of those basic words which seems to be common (indicating that hand granades are old Finnoungrian hunting equipment)
I dunno, the Finnish word sounds like 'grenade' too, maybe both just borrowed the same word as English?
 

Lordhen

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Day 44 of Winter War, January 12th 1940

Winter War Army Operations

the Soviets of 7th Army, now under Kirill Meretskov, attempt to cross the River Taipale, which is ice-bound. They choose a 16 km area between Taipale and the Munasuo swamp. They use an armoured wedge to break through, followed by infantry and other forces. They have built up their tank force and drastically increased manpower. The ultimate aim is Viipuri.

Winter War Peace Talks

There is a secret meeting between Finnish representatives and Madame Kollontai, the Soviet ambassador to Sweden, in Stockholm.
 

Lordhen

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Day 45 of Winter War, January 13th 1940

Winter War Army Operations

At Sallaa, the Soviet 9th Army orders the 122nd Division to retreat to the Märkäjärvi village. This helps the two prongs of the Soviet effort, on the north and south forks of the road, to form a tighter overall perimeter.

Winter War Air Operations

The Soviets bomb Helsinki, Turku, and nearby towns.

Winter War Naval Operations

Soviet submarine ShCh-324 surfaces within a convoy in the Sea of Åland, fires a torpedo, and misses. Finnish naval escort Aura II, which previously had been the Presidential yacht, damages ShCh-324 with depth charges. However, one of the depth charges explodes on the ship, utterly destroying it. There are 15 survivors and 26 perish. ShCh-324 escapes.
 

WandererRTF

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Aura II was originally named 'Halland' - and was a passenger liner built in 1884. It was rebuilt into a luxury yacht in 1930 and was presented as a gift for the Finland in 1936 becoming presidential yacht under the name 'Aura'. When Finland started preparing to war in autumn of 1939 it was taken over by the Finnish Navy and renamed as 'Aura II' as one of the other ships already taken over by the navy had been named 'Aura'. She was special in a sense that in 1939 Finland had grand total of 4 pairs of depth charge throwers - 3 went to various gunboats and the remaining pair was installed on Aura II. She also carried a 75 mm gun and a 20 mm AA gun. But other than that she wasn't all that special or fast, could only do 12 knots.

Soviet submarine actually fired a pair of torpedoes and then (accidentally) partially surfaced as the result - the nose and the tower breached surface. Finnish aerial support for the convoy, a Junkers F13 floatplane, had missed the submarine. The small Finnish convoy had two escorts, Tursas and Aura II. Tursas (a small armed trawler) first tried to ram the submarine but it evaded after which Aura II started firing depth charges at it (worth noting that i seriously doubt either of the 'escorts' had any method or equipment for underwater detection - so they were blind firing). Regardless the initial depth charge attack (3 depth charges) resulted in oil spill appearing to the surface hinting that submarine had been damaged so the commander of Aura II decided to fire couple more. However the sixth depth charge exploded on the DC thrower and the damage from the explosion of 135 kg of TNT tore up the rear end of the elderly vessel. It sank in just five minutes.

Fairly good drawing of Aura II after it had been rebuilt in 1930. Most of the pictures i have seen claiming to depict the ship actually show the other Aura.
https://goo.gl/images/hiZKGw