Winter war event chains

[Sharp163]

Hello, everyone! I had some ideas for the winter war, in the form of event chains. These will hopefully add more flavor to the war and make it more enjoyable

Event chains, in order:

USSR will start the chain, by taking the decision to demand land from Finland. They can either demand:
1. Area around Leningrad
2. Area around Leningrad and parts of Karelia
3. Area around Leningrad, Karelia, and Lapland
4. Full annexation

Each option will cause more world tension, and has a lower chance of Finland accepting the demands.

Finland's options:
1. Accept the demands...
2. They can pry it from my cold dead hands! (War)

A few days after Finland goes to war, an event will trigger in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany.

The options for the Scandinavian countries will be:
1. Send money and supplies
2. Send volunteer divisions
3. Protect Finland (War)

The first two options will probably not increase world tension, but the third one will mildly. The Scandinavian countries will only have a very small chance of picking the third option.

And the options for Germany will be:
1. Defend our Nordic brothers! (War with the Soviet Union)
2. We do not appreciate this...

The first option will trigger an early eastern front, and Germany will, once again, only have a very small chance of accepting this option.

The second option will lower relations between the USSR and Germany, as it happened in real life.

Fast forward by 3 months.

An event will fire for the USSR, saying finland has opened up peace negotiations.

Here are the options for the USSR. Only 2 options will appear on the event-- one, depending on the warscore at that point in time. The other being "we will not accept peace!", which raises world tension.

If there is a negative warscore, this event will not fire, and the USSR will be subject to Finland's will.

0-10% warscore - suggest a white peace.

10-30% warscore - demand the area around Leningrad.

30-50% warscore- demand the area around Leningrad, and parts of Karelia

50-70% warscore - demand the area around Leningrad, parts of Karelia, and Lapland.

70-100% warscore - demand full annexation.

If the Soviet Union chooses to not sue for peace, then in 2 months time after this event, a decision will fire for France and Great Britain, provided they are still democratic:

Intervene in Finland?

Based off the historical context:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-British_plans_for_intervention_in_the_Winter_War

Each of them will have two options:
1. Intervene on Finland's behalf. (War)

2. Write a strongly worded letter!

The first option will make Great Britain and/or France go to war against Russia, which will most likely place the USSR a spot on the Axis Powers.

The second option will raise world tension, and lower finland's opinion of GB/France.

If either Great Britain or France decides to go to war, then an event will fire for Sweden and Norway, saying that GB and France have asked for military access. This will only fire if Sweden and Norway are not already at war against Russia in defense of Finland.

Here are the options for Norway and Sweden:

1. Allow them access...

2. We do not want a part in this!

If Sweden and/or Norway picks the first option, then an event will fire for the USSR, saying that Norway and Sweden have thrown their lot in by allowing the western allies access. The options will be:

1. They are co-belligerents! (War with Sweden and/or Norway)

2. Let it go.

The chance of the USSR picking the first option will be the same as their warscore against Finland.

If the USSR decides to let it go, then world tension will be slightly lowered.

If France or Great Britain is communist, then an event will fire instead, asking them to join the USSR in their invasion of Finland. The options will be:

1. Join our comrades in the spread of Bolshevism!

2. Stay out of this stagnant war...

The first option puts them at war against Finland, while the second option lower's the Soviet Union's opinion of them.

If France or Great Britain are fascist, then no event will fire.

Thank you for reading this very long post. I hope this event chain will make the winter war much more enjoyable, and give a World War One-esque alliance entanglement to kick off WW2

Thanks again, and happy conquering.

PS: these are just my suggestions please stay positive

 

[Sic Domine]

Good post. This good lead to some really good alternate history.

There should also be a possibility to support Finland with troops or the likes and recieve eexperience from it

 

[Sharp163]

Good post. This good lead to some really good alternate history.

There should also be a possibility to support Finland with troops or the likes and recieve eexperience from it

Thank you very much and I agree!

 

[erkkijuusto]

The alternate history setting in the game settings could have random chances for the AI picking any of the options given to them.

 

[Sharp163]

The alternate history setting in the game settings could have random chances for the AI picking any of the options given to them.

Perhaps a mod could be made in which the AI has an equal chance of picking either option on any given event that could make some interesting situations...

 

[Sharp163]

I hate to bump my own post, but I would really love @podcat and the paradox team to see this

 

[Anton Rex]

I agree with this event chain,
I am not to sure if the Devs will give you an answer but we can always hope.

 

[Sharp163]

I agree with this event chain,
I am not to sure if the Devs will give you an answer but we can always hope.

Thank you very much I think it will make the winter war much more exciting and enjoyable.

 

[Fulmen]

They should at least get the historical events right before adding more "what-if" stuff...

 

[Sharp163]

They should at least get the historical events right before adding more "what-if" stuff...

I have faith in their ability I'm sure the winter war will be as accurate as possible. I just hope they incorporate some parts of my suggestion

 

[Fulmen]

I have faith in their ability I'm sure the winter war will be as accurate as possible. I just hope they incorporate some parts of my suggestion

From what we've seen, the Winter War in HoI4 is portrayed like in past HoIs. Far from accurate.

Karelian made a pretty good post about this, so I'll quote him:

Hearts of Iron IV is looking good. The new game mechanics offer a lot of modding potential, and for me it seems that the simplification of certain mechanics in the game brings back the fun factor that was so prevalent in HoI 2 and was sorely missing from HoI 3.

I also like the fact that there will be a sandbox mode for purely what-if stuff, as well as the historical path for those players who want the AI to follow historical route to the war.

And then comes my pet peeve. In World War Wednesday Part IV, which I otherwise enjoyed a lot, it was casually revealed that Paradox has once again decided to model the Winter War in completely ahistorical fashion.

But it's only Finns and Soviets fighting a few months at some forsaken frozen forest in the middle of nowhere, why should anyone care?

Because Winter War was much more important than Khalkhyn Gol - which has always been portrayed historically correctly in HoI series.
It happened at the northern outskirts of Europe when there was a lull at the fighting after the fall of Poland, affected the neutrality policies of the United States, brought down the wartime government of France, led to the occupation of Denmark and the battle of Norway, made the Soviets to continue their military reforms after the Purges while convincing Hitler about the perceived military ineptness of Soviet Union and so forth.

And yet the events about the war in Hearts of Iron series have been notoriously ahistorical since Hearts of Iron 2. It's not like resident forum Finns and other followers of WW2 history haven't pointed this out to Paradox in 2005, and again in 2009, and now yet again...It's a bit frustrating.

Soviets did not demand the borders of Moscow Peace Treaty of 1940 in the negotiations conducted in autumn 1939, they did not go to war to merely annex the Finnish Karelia but invaded with plans to occupy and annex whole Finland, and only gave up of this strategic objective and opted to sign an interim peace with the Finns when it seemed likely that the Western Allies would intervene to the conflict.
Why is this so hard to portray correctly in the game, Paradox? It doesn't take long to mod it in to the previous parts of the series, and it's certainly possible and even easy to do with the current game mechanics.

Hearts of Iron games have done a good job in dealing with the history of the general course of WW2 in Europe, but I'm puzzled about the fact that this particular piece of history of the war has proven to be so difficult for you?

Regards, Karelian.

tl;dr - remake the Soviet demand events in 1939 a bit so that they won't demand whole of Karelia, change the Soviet wargoal in 1939 to annexation of Finland, give them the option to settle for historical peace deal of 1940 or continue the war in spring 1940 = Winter War modeled historically in the game. Now that wasn't too hard, now was it?

Then there's also the combat part. Simulating the bigger battles of the Winter and the Continuation War has always been impossible in any of the HoIs; it would always result in the Finns being slaughtered. This is especially noticeable in air combat, where historically Finns had only a few dozen often outdated and ill-equipped fighters against thousands of Russian fighters and bombers, and still managed to achieve a massive victory-to-loss ratio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suomussalmi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raate_Road
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tolvajärvi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala

Some examples of such battles from both wars.

Getting the combat right is of course harder for a game that also portrays all the other threatres of WW2, but the events would be quite easy to fix. For some reason Paradox Interactive to this date does not seem to be interested in doing so.

 

[Sharp163]

From what we've seen, the Winter War in HoI4 is portrayed like in past HoIs. Far from accurate.

Karelian made a pretty good post about this, so I'll quote him:



Then there's also the combat part. Simulating the bigger battles of the Winter and the Continuation War has always been impossible in any of the HoIs; it would always result in the Finns being slaughtered. This is especially noticeable in air combat, where historically Finns had only a few dozen often outdated and ill-equipped fighters against thousands of Russian fighters and bombers, and still managed to achieve a massive victory-to-loss ratio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suomussalmi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raate_Road
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tolvajärvi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala

Some examples of such battles from both wars.

Getting the combat right is of course harder for a game that also portrays all the other threatres of WW2, but the events would be quite easy to fix. For some reason Paradox Interactive to this date does not seem to be interested in doing so.

I hope two things, then... That paradox fixes the winter war as per your suggestions, and incorporates parts of mine to make it more fun

 

[ArcandSpark]

It looks like a good idea but I think there is a problem with increasing world tension. From my understanding, increasing world tension would work against the axis and for the democracy's. The axis have no say for increasing world tension and if the soviets declare war on Finland then Germany should be able to intervene without actually going to war by sending equipment and supplies. Which would be a deterrent to raise world tension. My history might be a bit rusty in that area but I think Germany did send equipment to Finland to help defend against the Soviets.

 

[Sharp163]

It looks like a good idea but I think there is a problem with increasing world tension. From my understanding, increasing world tension would work against the axis and for the democracy's. The axis have no say for increasing world tension and if the soviets declare war on Finland then Germany should be able to intervene without actually going to war by sending equipment and supplies. My history might be a bit rusty in that area but I think Germany did send equipment to Finland to help defend against the Soviets.

Good idea, Germany should have the option to do this, just as the Scandinavian countries do

As for the world tension thing, the implications of the events can be worked out later

 

[GermanKaiser]

Germans didn't send equipment to finland during winter war. Finland was part of soviet sphere of influence as it was agreed between Germany and USSR

 

[Kollatius]

Shouldn't there be alternative events that happen if Finland gets the upper hand? Unlikely from historical standpoint but from alternative history standpoint could be interesting

 

[Fulmen]

Germans didn't send equipment to finland during winter war. Finland was part of soviet sphere of influence as it was agreed between Germany and USSR

Not only that, but they also actively blocked material and volunteers from going through Germany to Finland. That's why for example the 35 Fiat G.50 fighters Finland bought from Italy reached Finland quite late in the Winter War.

IIRC the German press also censored criticism of the Russian invasion of Finland.

These actions were made to preserve good relations with the Russians and to avoid giving them any excuses for hostilities; if Russia had invaded the Romanian oil fields in 1940, then Germany would've been in big trouble.

Hermann Göring did extort Sweden to send some armaments to Finland, some of which apparently were of German origin. This was of course done unofficially and in secret from the Russians. Göring was related through marriage to Swedish Count Erik von Rosen, the same Count who had helped Finland already in 1918 during the Finnish War of Independence.

Italy on the contrast was officially very pro-Finland and the official German stance and refusal to let war material be transitted through Germany to Finland actually did damage Italo-German relations.

 

[Sharp163]

Shouldn't there be alternative events that happen if Finland gets the upper hand? Unlikely from historical standpoint but from alternative history standpoint could be interesting

Finland would probably sue for peace after capturing Karelia and possibly Leningrad

Not only that, but they also actively blocked material and volunteers from going through Germany to Finland. That's why for example the 35 Fiat G.50 fighters Finland bought from Italy reached Finland quite late in the Winter War.

IIRC the German press also censored criticism of the Russian invasion of Finland.

These actions were made to preserve good relations with the Russians and to avoid giving them any excuses for hostilities; if Russia had invaded the Romanian oil fields in 1940, then Germany would've been in big trouble.

Hermann Göring did extort Sweden to send some armaments to Finland, some of which apparently were of German origin. This was of course done unofficially and in secret from the Russians. Göring was related through marriage to Swedish Count Erik von Rosen, the same Count who had helped Finland already in 1918 during the Finnish War of Independence.

Italy on the contrast was officially very pro-Finland and the official German stance and refusal to let war material be transitted through Germany to Finland actually did damage Italo-German relations.

Germany should have the option to send materials to Finland, for a relations boost with the Finns and Italians, but it breaks the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and ends their non aggression pact with the USSR

 

[BBBD316]

Woah! Why would the Germans want to push the Soviets before they were ready? And for Finland of all places?

As to the actual combat, I would like to see Finland have some NF's that develop a really prowerful set of defensive bonuses, so that as the Russians attack they will have a really hard time, but that the Finns shouldn't be able to roll them up.

Let the Finns grind the Russians down and perhaps the longer they hold on the more likely the Russians are to accept less demands/white peace.

The Winter War does start with a Russian NF so the Finns should defend with their own NFs.

 

[Loke]

As to the actual combat, I would like to see Finland have some NF's that develop a really prowerful set of defensive bonuses, so that as the Russians attack they will have a really hard time, but that the Finns shouldn't be able to roll them up.

Let the Finns grind the Russians down and perhaps the longer they hold on the more likely the Russians are to accept less demands/white peace..

And doing it like this would be more historicaly correct.