Winter War done wrong for the 4th time in HoI

[MGL 86]

When Germans stalled before Moscow, this is winter comes to aid Russians.

When Russians stalled in Finland this is not winter fault.

 

[Secret Master]

When Germans stalled before Moscow, this is winter comes to aid Russians.

When Russians stalled in Finland this is not winter fault.

So, German logistical failures, put alongside intelligence failures, are not a factor in losing before Moscow?

Does anyone seriously just attribute the winter and nothing else to Soviet victory in Barbarossa at the end of 41?

 

[wingo]

So, German logistical failures, put alongside intelligence failures, are not a factor in losing before Moscow?

Does anyone seriously just attribute the winter and nothing else to Soviet victory in Barbarossa at the end of 41?

Only around 95% of internet And they never say Soviets win, only that Germans lose

 

[Loke]

When Germans stalled before Moscow, this is winter comes to aid Russians.

When Russians stalled in Finland this is not winter fault.

Theres one flaw here... Germany is not a winter nation in the same sense as Finland and Russia. Anyway my point...

#1 Germany should have predicted weather in Russia and that the campaign would take time, Germanys own fault.
#2 Russia as a winter nation and a invader of another (tiny)winter nation and getting bogged down blaming it on winter, lol come on!

 

[Opanashc]

Theres one flaw here... Germany is not a winter nation in the same sense as Finland and Russia. Anyway my point...

#1 Germany should have predicted weather in Russia and that the campaign would take time, Germanys own fault.
#2 Russia as a winter nation and a invader of another (tiny)winter nation and getting bogged down blaming it on winter, lol come on!

Nice double standards!
Those who wish to know more - I implore to study the theater of operation of Winter War, and the weather conditions during the stall of Red Army compared to it during the success.
In short: attacking in summer through local swamps was counterproductive for the SU, with its tank advantage. In December '39 temperatures were quite moderate, while in February '40 it was a quite a bit colder.

 

[Loke]

Nice double standards!
Those who wish to know more - I implore to study the theater of operation of Winter War, and the weather conditions during the stall of Red Army compared to it during the success.
In short: attacking in summer through local swamps was counterproductive for the SU, with its tank advantage. In December '39 temperatures were quite moderate, while in February '40 it was a quite a bit colder.

Not really double standars, no.

#1 If gearing up for "Winter war" in Finland during winter -39/40 you better dress properly and use winter equipment immediately as it might get a bit cold and snowy invading on the 30th of november... Remember there is no bad weather only bad clothes.

#2 If gearing up for "Barbarossa" in Russia during summer -41 you should dress accordingly, summer clothing/equipment comes to mind as it is june.

Or we can always "swap" them losses-numbers again...Say Finland had the Russian losses of the "Winter war" then all of the Finnish army would have been completely annihiliated, as I wrote, it's all about numbers.
And again, if Germany had the losses of Russia during "Barbarossa" then all of the German eastern front + all of their allied armies would have vanished...
The war would be over in both cases.

Numbers my friend, numbers.

 

[Loke]

So, German logistical failures, put alongside intelligence failures, are not a factor in losing before Moscow?

Does anyone seriously just attribute the winter and nothing else to Soviet victory in Barbarossa at the end of 41?

#1 Yes, those are some factors.
#2 No, it was more than just winter.

 

[Opanashc]

And again, if Germany had the losses of Russia during "Barbarossa" then all of the German eastern front + all of their allied armies would have vanished...

You seem to not know the meaning of the word "replacements".
As for numbers... Up until end of 1941, Axis had more men actually fighting on the Eastern front, then SU did. You know, numbers.

 

[Loke]

You seem to not know the meaning of the word "replacements".
As for numbers... Up until end of 1941, Axis had more men actually fighting on the Eastern front, then SU did. You know, numbers.

Are you seriusly saying that Germany could have replaced over 4 million soldiers, its entire Eastern front and its Axis allies with replacements?

Let me say this in a polite and modest way, I am little sceptical to the German ability to bring forward another "over 4 million soldiers" and send them eastwards in 1941... If Germany had "swapped" losses with Russia in Barbarossa it would have been GAME OVER for Germany/Axis in 1941.

And again - So how do we model the Winter war without Russia blitzing Finland?

 

[Opanashc]

Are you seriusly saying that Germany could have replaced over 4 million soldiers, its entire Eastern front and its Axis allies with replacements?

Of course not in 1941. Just over 1 million in addition to the ones who started. And still, German forces in the East were severely under strength. 7 battalions instead of 9, 80 men in company instead of 180 - that's reduction by ~3000 riflemen for EVERY division in the east. Almost half a million men, even with replacements, and still divisions were not at 100% of new authorized strengths. What conclusions can we draw from that? Over 1.5 million casualties just for German forces on the Eastern front in 1941. Interesting, isn't it?
But, what does Barbarossa campaign have to do with accuracy of representation of Winter War in game?
I think we all agreed, that representation was fairly accurate - talks, where Finland can accept or refuse, war with initial goal of securing land, with possible option of spreading Moscow influence over Helsinki if that is your fancy.

 

[The Albatross]

The winter conditions actually reversed the soviet superiority in equipment. When fighting in deep soft snow skis were better than the soviet tanks and trucks. In effect the winter conditions meant that the finns had superior equipment.

Edit;
I agree that the winter war is difficult to model. What is needed is to make it very difficult to supply large numbers of troops or supply hungry forces like armour in poor infrustructure areas in winter. Tanks should have heavy movement penalties unless you research wide tracks.

.....And this is perfectly explained in the reference that @Karelian supplied by JURI KILIN --- see my previous post #15 in this thread.
It was ONLY because of a railway line that the SOV forces could bring troops, supplies and everything logistical close to the combat zone.
Again, this reinforces the absolute necessity to have rail infra anywhere requiring war-fighting materiel.

 

[The Albatross]

The training between the medium soviet soldier and the finnish one won't differ that much.
The soviets were just in worst position and with bad chain of command.

War-fighting is not just about training -- it is also about morale and WHY people fight.
They fight much harder to save themselves!

"This is the historical epic life and death struggle of a tiny country and only a small Finnish Army against the powerful "Evil Empire."
It is the story of the stubborn will to remain free, enlisting the help of the Almighty in the superhuman task, and we have pictures of the men praying before battle."

The above reference by Osmo Joronen has rare images and video about the USSR Vs Finland Wars.

 

[MGL 86]

So, German logistical failures, put alongside intelligence failures, are not a factor in losing before Moscow?

Does anyone seriously just attribute the winter and nothing else to Soviet victory in Barbarossa at the end of 41?

Internet is full of "Barbarossa and there is always some sentence about how Rasputia or General Winter helped Russians" (Weather should work on both ways in my opinion.)

Now when you read Winter War (even war name is Winter), There is always tiny nation Finland stopped hordes of Russian invaders. (and missing part is until winter is over)

 

[Pippo Franchino]

Unfortunatly we tend always to understimate the soviet forces and think they were just Lucky to defend moscow from nazi. I would say that there were many factors and the soviet People of course were hard men and women and with a lot of faith. Speaking about winter war i think finnish have had better defensive positions, better morale and better equipment For winter other then better tactics. Soviet were badly supplied, badly leaded and the tanks were pretty unusefuls in the forests/ high snow terrains. I've read many died frozen. However those problems would have solved and the soviets if the war continued would have won For sure. I want to add that if the soviets continued the winter war maybe better officers would have formed For the future and with more Experience at expense of Too many losses between the poor soldiers. Ps: Morale is of course important

 

[MGL 86]

Soviets WON the winter war. Finns fought well using the terrains and weather. But once the spring came and their front started collapsing they had to settle for peace for more than what Soviets initially asked for.

 

[Pippo Franchino]

I totally agree with you mgl. The fault of the soviets was loose Too many poor soldiers with bad moves.

 

[Simoleum]

What if the War goal is conquer, and then the Soviets opt for just some territories (Karelia, etc, as historical - or perhaps their gains (in non-historical mode)), if their casualities reach higher than a certain value, or if they havent by X months conquered Y provinces.

 

[Tvarog]

I don't understand all this argue about Barbarossa plan.

Of course winter help soviets (and i'm not fully sure if we should be happy about it). Helped them other fronts in which Axis had to fight, for example helped them also special operations of send by brits paratroopers and partisans in almost every parts in europe who were destroying infrastructure. Finns doesn't had any help of this kind.
In barbarossa there was a big war between big evil empire and bigger, similarly evil empire. Finland was only tiny country defending against big evil empire and even if winter helped them we should appreciate their heroism.

P.S. But everybody knows that winter helped them - but i don't see any reason emphasize it.

 

[Loke]

I totally agree with you mgl. The fault of the soviets was loose Too many poor soldiers with bad moves.

Yes, Pippo, the Russians lost way too many poor soldiers with their bad moves, especially at Suomussalmi.

 

[Tvarog]

Yes, Pippo, the Russians lost way too many poor soldiers with their bad moves.

Hey, c'mon thats only the russian way of winning wars!