Winter War done wrong for the 4th time in HoI

[Karelian]

Hearts of Iron IV is looking good. The new game mechanics offer a lot of modding potential, and for me it seems that the simplification of certain mechanics in the game brings back the fun factor that was so prevalent in HoI 2 and was sorely missing from HoI 3.

I also like the fact that there will be a sandbox mode for purely what-if stuff, as well as the historical path for those players who want the AI to follow historical route to the war.

And then comes my pet peeve. In World War Wednesday Part IV, which I otherwise enjoyed a lot, it was casually revealed that Paradox has once again decided to model the Winter War in completely ahistorical fashion.

But it's only Finns and Soviets fighting a few months at some forsaken frozen forest in the middle of nowhere, why should anyone care?

Because Winter War was much more important than Khalkhyn Gol - which has always been portrayed historically correctly in HoI series.
It happened at the northern outskirts of Europe when there was a lull at the fighting after the fall of Poland, affected the neutrality policies of the United States, brought down the wartime government of France, led to the occupation of Denmark and the battle of Norway, made the Soviets to continue their military reforms after the Purges while convincing Hitler about the perceived military ineptness of Soviet Union and so forth.

And yet the events about the war in Hearts of Iron series have been notoriously ahistorical since Hearts of Iron 2. It's not like resident forum Finns and other followers of WW2 history haven't pointed this out to Paradox in 2005, and again in 2009, and now yet again...It's a bit frustrating.

Soviets did not demand the borders of Moscow Peace Treaty of 1940 in the negotiations conducted in autumn 1939, they did not go to war to merely annex the Finnish Karelia but invaded with plans to occupy and annex whole Finland, and only gave up of this strategic objective and opted to sign an interim peace with the Finns when it seemed likely that the Western Allies would intervene to the conflict.

Why is this so hard to portray correctly in the game, Paradox? It doesn't take long to mod it in to the previous parts of the series, and it's certainly possible and even easy to do with the current game mechanics.

Hearts of Iron games have done a good job in dealing with the history of the general course of WW2 in Europe, but I'm puzzled about the fact that this particular piece of history of the war has proven to be so difficult for you?

Regards, Karelian.

tl;dr - remake the Soviet demand events in 1939 a bit so that they won't demand whole of Karelia, change the Soviet wargoal in 1939 to annexation of Finland, give them the option to settle for historical peace deal of 1940 or continue the war in spring 1940 = Winter War modeled historically in the game. Now that wasn't too hard, now was it?

 

[Anichent]

they did not go to war to merely annex the Finnish Karelia but invaded with plans to occupy and annex whole Finland

probably because no history book or account I have ever read claimed the Soviet's wanted to annex Finland.

These three for instance state the Soviet's wanted concessions in exchange for land:
1) Trotter, William R. (2002) [1991]. The Winter War: The Russo–Finnish War of 1939–40 (5th ed.). New York (Great Britain: London): Workman Publishing Company (Great Britain: Aurum Press). First published in the United States under the title A Frozen Hell: The Russo–Finnish Winter War of 1939–40
2) Lightbody, Bradley (2004). The Second World War: Ambitions to Nemesis. London: Routledge.
3) Edwards, Robert (2006). White Death: Russia's War on Finland 1939–40. London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson.

And I am sure there are hundreds of other accounts in many other languages. So sorry, but I think its not in HOI that way because it didn't happen that way.....

 

[jamesd]

With just a quick reading of the Wiki on the background to the winter war, it seems the initial Soviet demands were for less territory than they ended up with after it ended. The Finns countered with offers of smaller bits of land but those offers were not accepted.

According to Edwards, Robert (2006) White Death: Russia's War on Finland 1939-40 the Soviet invasion plan had them taking Helsinki no later than 21st December and according to a Finnish book referenced on the Wiki they established the Terijoki Government, a puppet regime, on 1 December 1939, which was discarded later in the winter when it became obvious they were not going to conquer the country.

With the invasion plan having them in Helsinki within 3 weeks of the war starting and a puppet regime established the day after it started, I think its entirely fair to say once they had decided on war, the HOI4 objective of the Soviets was to puppet Finland. However the war did not go to plan and they settled for annexing some land.

This is again going to show the limitations of nations only being able to annex complete states, as the Finns could have accepted the Soviet initial offer, or the Soviets might have accepted a counter offer or the historical outcome could be the result. The number of provinces changing hands in all 3 situations would have been different, but could not be modelled with the clunky state only mechanism that we're getting in HOI4.

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

Because Winter War was much more important than Khalkhyn Gol - which has always been portrayed historically correctly in HoI series. It happened at the northern outskirts of Europe when there was a lull at the fighting after the fall of Poland, affected the neutrality policies of the United States, brought down the wartime government of France, led to the occupation of Denmark and the battle of Norway, made the Soviets to continue their military reforms after the Purges while convincing Hitler about the perceived military ineptness of Soviet Union and so forth.

Good to see that Finnish Nationalism is alive and well.

 

[agus92]

Because Winter War was much more important than Khalkhyn Gol - [...], made the Soviets to continue their military reforms after the Purges

The Soviet Purge policy had nothing to do with Finland, it was both a tool for Stalin to ensure power and a planned soviet theory (back when they started) to ensure that the army would never be in a position to defy the revolution.

If only, Finland defeats gave an excuse to Stalin to continue with the purges. But it was certainly not the cause.

 

[potski]

He doesn't say that. They continued their military reforms.

 

[Karelian]

And I am sure there are hundreds of other accounts in many other languages. So sorry, but I think its not in HOI that way because it didn't happen that way.....

You are wrong. Here's why:
Trotter made his book without access to Soviet archives in 1991, later research have since reached a wide consensus about the Soviet strategic goals. Your reading of Edwards is also rather interesting. Could you care to provide the pages where he claims that Soviets only wanted territory and were not initially planning to annex Finland?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Winter-Wa..._UL160_SR107,160_&refRID=1Z2X5ATTSATXNQ6PBCCN
"On November 30, 1939, the Soviet Union's Red Army invaded the young nation-state of Finland, in the full expectation of routing the small, ill-equipped Finnish army and annexing the former Russian territory by the end of the year."

Here are few recommended books - I only posted English-speaking or Russian authors to avoid issues of alleged nationalist bias.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Hundred-D..._UL160_SR115,160_&refRID=1Z2X5ATTSATXNQ6PBCCN
Sanders has a good, comprehensive study of the subject. If you read only one book about Winter War, read this.

http://www.amazon.com/The-White-Dea..._UL160_SR103,160_&refRID=1Z2X5ATTSATXNQ6PBCCN
Chew's book is another generalist history of the conflict:

If you want Russian views in English, I recommend either Irincheev:
http://www.amazon.com/War-White-Dea..._UL160_SR106,160_&refRID=1Z2X5ATTSATXNQ6PBCCN

Or Kilin, one of the primary authors of Russian Winter War research:
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/thisweek/48011999.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Kilin

 

[Lither]

I shall now sum the thread up:
FINLAND STRONKER THAN RUSSIA
SOVIET UNION STRONKER THAN FINLAND

I for one am glad that devs are Swedes, it's some insurance that nationalism won't majorly affect the game
[coughing] Eugen

 

[Karelian]

I shall now sum the thread up:
FINLAND STRONKER THAN RUSSIA
SOVIET UNION STRONKER THAN FINLAND

I for one am glad that devs are Swedes, it's some insurance that nationalism won't majorly affect the game
[coughing] Eugen

Please read the OP before wasting everyone's time with tired trolling attempts.

 

[Lither]

Winter War was much more important than Khalkhyn Gol - which has always been portrayed historically correctly in HoI series.
It happened at the northern outskirts of Europe when there was a lull at the fighting after the fall of Poland, affected the neutrality policies of the United States, brought down the wartime government of France, led to the occupation of Denmark and the battle of Norway, made the Soviets to continue their military reforms after the Purges while convincing Hitler about the perceived military ineptness of Soviet Union and so forth.

Really.

 

[Karelian]

Really.

Yes.
US neutrality policies, p. 30-31: http://finland.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/015_040tt8393.pdf
French government crisis: http://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=530 19 Mar 1940 The French Parliament criticized Prime Minister Daladier for the French inaction during the Winter War. Daladier resigned after a vote of no confidence.
Occupation of Denmark and Norway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Weserübung#Political_and_military_background
Soviet military reforms: Stalin and the Soviet-Finnish War, 1939-1940, Kulkov,and Aleksandrovich: https://books.google.fi/books?id=wF...&q=winter war military reforms soviet&f=false

And so forth: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3jpeu1/why_is_the_winter_war_finnishrussian_war_so/ (yes, it is a Reddit link)

 

[Lither]

Thanks for proving my point

I will say this though

Occupation of Denmark and Norway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Weserübung#Political_and_military_background

Convinced of the threat posed by the Allies to the iron ore supply, Hitler orderedOberkommando der Wehrmacht (Armed Forces High Command; OKW) to begin preliminary planning for an invasion of Norway.

 

[Karelian]

Thanks for proving my point

"I have no idea of the topic but I like to troll by blaming others of nationalist bias" - do note that the most likely in-game effect of the changes I propose would most likely mean that on an average historical mode game the Soviets would annex Finland by 1939. That's hardly a demand for FINLAND STRONK1-type buff, now is it?

I will say this though

And care you also tell what was the pretext the Allies were planning to use to violate Norwegian and Swedish neutrality?

 

[Lither]

Finland most important nation of 1940 is what I'm clearly referring to here.

 

[The Albatross]

*** SNIP ***


Or Kilin, one of the primary authors of Russian Winter War research:
http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/thisweek/48011999.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Kilin

Thank you for these references @Karelian, especially the one above.
It adds to my historical awareness.

Whilst slightly Off Topic.
More evidence about how successful tactical OPS can affect strategic and geo-political events;

"At the beginning of March there were around 300,000 Russian soldiers at the Petrozavodhsk rail-head, and supplying these units depended totally on this railway line.
Any interruption in rail traffic would have put an abrupt stop to ammunitions or foodstuffs deliveries.
The troops were certainly not able to live off the land - this was the end of a very severe winter indeed, and Karelia, which suffered from extremely low agricultural output, could supply only a hundredth part of the food required to keep the army on its feet.
This meant that the lives of literally hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops depended on just one successful or lucky bombing strike.
Just one bridge taken out could have led to their starvation and to the remnants of the Red Army formations being mopped up by the Finns.
This would have been a military catastrophe on an even greater scale than the war had already become, and would probably have led to unpredictable political fall-out”, says Kilin.

Perhaps there is a Finnish modder our there who wishes to add such an event.

 

[Loke]

The Winter war is a problem. The Finns had crappy military standard materialwise - 114 aircraft, 32 tanks although good morale and tough soldiers.
The Russian army on the other hand had every advantage there is - 4 times more soldiers, more than 3800 aircraft and over 6500 tanks.

So how do we do this without Russia blitzing Finland?

 

[Telenil]

Russia installed a puppet Finnish government at their border, signed a traty of friendhsip with it, and then that puppet guy asked the Soviet to come and "liberate" Finland. I don't know if the Soviet intended to annex Finland or to merely puppet it, but it seems clear they wanted more than a stretch of territory.

 

[FOARP]

Because Winter War was much more important than Khalkhyn Gol - which has always been portrayed historically correctly in HoI series.

Err . . . no, it hasn't. There hasn't been a single HOI game that has modelled this correctly either - at most this has simply been an event, not combat. Vichy France was never modelled properly either. Or the Soviet invasion of Poland. Or a number of other historical events.

Russia installed a puppet Finnish government at their border, signed a traty of friendhsip with it, and then that puppet guy asked the Soviet to come and "liberate" Finland. I don't know if the Soviet intended to annex Finland or to merely puppet it, but it seems clear they wanted more than a stretch of territory.

This is closer to the truth. There was never a declared intention to outright annex Finland, but certainly there was an intent to puppet it if they could do so easily.

 

[CocoCincinnati]

I'm not as worried about the political events as much as I am about the actual combat in the Winter War. Finland's greatest asset was terrain and weather. IMO, HOI3 came the closest to modeling this with low infrastructure which limited the soviets avenues of advance. I recently watched the video of Finland in HOI4 and two things seemed evident. First, divisions in the north seemed to move into and through any province they wanted with little problem. However that didn't seem to matter because secondly, Finland was actually mopping the floor with the soviets early on as there simply weren't many soviet divisions in the area. So I do have concerns about the whole Winter War aspect of the game but realize things are still in development so it's not fair to judge it yet.

 

[Jamey]

I'm not as worried about the political events as much as I am about the actual combat in the Winter War. Finland's greatest asset was terrain and weather. IMO, HOI3 came the closest to modeling this with low infrastructure which limited the soviets avenues of advance. I recently watched the video of Finland in HOI4 and two things seemed evident. First, divisions in the north seemed to move into and through any province they wanted with little problem. However that didn't seem to matter because secondly, Finland was actually mopping the floor with the soviets early on as there simply weren't many soviet divisions in the area. So I do have concerns about the whole Winter War aspect of the game but realize things are still in development so it's not fair to judge it yet.

When they showed that, there was an AI bug (part of the AI was disabled in that build or something), so the Soviets weren't fighting correctly. I wouldn't see it as the actual state of the game.


On the OP's topic:

1) Clearly, history books disagree on the events, so Paradox's sources could disagree with yours.

2) The devs have said that gameplay will trump history at times, and this is could either be an easier way to implement the Winter War or it could be a way that results in historical results more often, though an ahistorical representation.

3) In one of the HOI3 Expansions, Russia Russia was given the choice of either sticking to the border claims, or pissing more nations off and conquering Finland.