Winter in North America

[LouisSteColombe]

.... is way too mild!

I don't see enough snow! Sure snow is a pain, but I happen to like it!

Not sure how North American winter compare to Sweden or Russia, but for sure, it's much toughr than Northern Germany, and Northern Germany got snow pretty often!

More snow in North America!

Louis,

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Perhaps, but it's also a fact that all of the Americas are too far north compared to the rest of the world. (On the map, I mean).

 

[unmerged(9563)]

Most of N. America shouldn't get snow, only about Deleware and up, across the map or so. (the province). I might be wrong about the Midwest and how that works out there, though. And of course the two Southernmost SA provinces get Snow in the summer, I think.

 

[unmerged(17856)]

good observation LouisSteColombe!

I definately agree with you Kwang, that winter should fall on Deleware and up. I am not too sure, but I think you can change the probabilities each month of attaining snow in each province. This will definately be an improvement for fighting conditions and attrition. Historically, armies were very small in these provinces, and for good reasons. Larger European sized armies would just have been halarious in the field, er i mean forests, let alone how they'd react in the dead of winter.

I'm gonna take your suggestion to the merger, i'll quote you of course

 

[Waffen9999]

Actually what I was wondering is if it should snow period all the time. I noticed in Europe for instance certain areas are always a bit randomized with snow. I've seen snow for instance inside France at times and than other times not at all. In Russia you always see it >not sure if even that is really real though it wouldn't shock me greatly< Now, I live the in the U.S. Midwest, Illinois to be exact, for 22 years now. And I can tell you with certainity it doesn't always snow. At least not to the point that I'd say throwing snow on the province and making people freeze to death.

 

[unmerged(17856)]

That's what I'm saying. We'd need to put some thought into each province, but I would definetely say that Illinois and wisconsin provinces, minnesota just to name a few, michigan, they should get a probability of getting snow. Much like what you described happens in France in the game.
I am in London, Ontario, so I'd say my area would get a higher probability. Certainly some provinces in Quebec should get snow much like it is currently in Russia in the game i.e. practically guaranteed.

 

[saskganesh]

Originally posted by ribbon22
Certainly some provinces in Quebec should get snow much like it is currently in Russia in the game i.e. practically guaranteed.

yes. two of the three seiges of quebec in the 18th century were in winter. it must have been really rough, especially with the cold wind off the st. lawrence.

 

[LouisSteColombe]

North of the great lake; 99% chance you get some snow.

North of a Delaware / Iowa line and south of the lakes; likely you get some snow.

South of Delaware / Iowa line; no snow (as it is today)

Louis,

 

[unmerged(19088)]

It is not "SNOW" that is the problem conserning attrition and army-movement... it is the temperature!

Though it not always snows in all northern provinces in NA, Scandinavia or Russia, it does get cold... To be honest, snowing is often a sign that it isn't too cold, (-10 - 0 degrees Celsius), it can get really cold without any snow... -20... -30... that is not unusual!

Therefore, many provnices in NA should get more winter... the NA is a much colder continent than Europe.... (Russian Siberia is the coldest though)

 

[AndrewT]

This issue has come up several times before. There are two problems, one that not all provinces have the right climate value, the other that there is a bug in winter appearing and working properly.

The first one is easy to fix, it just needs people dedicated enough to research the changes required. I'd be pleased if someone ran a thread in the Bug Reports forum to get this cleaned up once and for all.

FYI, The values for Climate in provinces.csv are, as best as we know:

0 - Snow, October through May. It is most prevalant in November through April.
1 - Seems to be desert type weather.
2 - Certainly no snow with this value. It appears in a couple of Baltic Sea provinces, a couple of South American provinces, most of North America, and one Siberian province. it might be intended to provide very occasional snow, but still, the province assortment is wierd.
3 - No snow.
4 - Tropical climate.
5 - Some snow December through February.
6 - Tropical climate. This one seems mostly used in equatorial provinces, compared to a value of 4.
7 - Snow, November through March. It is most prevalent in December through February.
8 - Snow, June through August. Used in the southern hemisphere and in a couple of Afghani and Indian provinces (north of the equator).

The bug I don't hold much hope will be fixed, I'm afraid.

 

[unmerged(4253)]

N America (USA is what I know of) is not as far north as Europe, but this is made up for by a jet stream which dips lower in America. Moscow is on the same Parallel as Anchorage Alaska, for example. New England was much more harsh than England.

 

[Amric]

I'm from the MidWest in the US and believe me, it gets VERY cold here in Indiana, and Wisconsin, and Illinois, and Kentucky, and Kansas, and Nebraska. Considering everything It can get brutally cold in Kentucky and even down to northern Tennessee. Remember this game is based during the time of the "little Ice Age".

Kentucky all the way to Colorado, Utah, northern Nevada and Northern California would be quite chilly in the winter during the EUII timeperiod. A further patch down the line ought to address this if possible. It would make it more realistic. In fact, during this time period even southern France would be quite chilly during the winter period of time. Northern Italy as well, and into Hungary, Serbia, et al.

 

[unmerged(19088)]

The Norwegian coast reaches as far north as about the northern coast of Canada and Alaska. Thanks to the "Gulf-stream" (of Mexico), Norway has a much warmer climate than the NA. Winters with average-temperatures of 5-10 degrees + (celsius) is not uncommon on the western coast of Norway, compared t o the US, New York gets snow in the winter.... and NY is as far south as Rome...

 

[unmerged(19696)]

Here in Nova Scotia we are also affected by the gulf stream. Yesterday it was 15 degrees Celcius here while most of the rest of Canada was under 5.

For the Canadian provinces, then, I'd put Nova Scotia and the lower BC areas in climate 5 category, the provinces around the Great Lakes (except superior) in category 7, and everything else (including Newfoundland) as category 0. I don't have a copy of the map handy or I'd add names to that list, but that should be a rough guide.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by AndrewT

FYI, The values for Climate in provinces.csv are, as best as we know:

0 - Snow, October through May. It is most prevalant in November through April.
1 - Seems to be desert type weather.
2 - Certainly no snow with this value. It appears in a couple of Baltic Sea provinces, a couple of South American provinces, most of North America, and one Siberian province. it might be intended to provide very occasional snow, but still, the province assortment is wierd.
3 - No snow.
4 - Tropical climate.
5 - Some snow December through February.
6 - Tropical climate. This one seems mostly used in equatorial provinces, compared to a value of 4.
7 - Snow, November through March. It is most prevalent in December through February.
8 - Snow, June through August. Used in the southern hemisphere and in a couple of Afghani and Indian provinces (north of the equator).

There is definitely some winter in climate 2, but it's wrong. And why is Scania of all places the only European province in this climate zone?

Climate 2 would seem to be appropriate for the Eastern US and the Upper South / Lower Midwest, but the rest is ridiculous.

Average temp (Degrees F unfortunately) in different climates for coldest month of the year right now (admittedly temperature were different in 1419, and different again in 1820, but I wanted to identify the problem):

• climate 2
  -Gaspesie (Gaspe) 11.1
  -Fundy (St John) 18.1
  -Nova Scotia (Halifax) 21.2
  -Isle Royale (Sydney) 21.6
  -Manhattan 30.7 (that one seems low, but...)
  -Detroit 30.4
  -Oshawa (Toronto) 20.8
  -Connecticut (New Haven) 36.7
  -Massachusetts (Boston) 35.6
  -Hochelaga (Montreal) 14.5
  -Ottawa 20.8
  -Stadacone (quebec City) 10.4
  -Scania (Malmo) 30.6
• climate 3
  -Yorkshire (York) 38.1
  -London 45
  -Meath (Dublin) 46
  -Grampians (Aberdeen)37.8
  -Lothian (Edinburgh) 37.6
  -Strathclyde (Galsgow) 38.3
  -Thrace (Istanbul) 47.5
  -Hellas (Athens) 55
  -Kaffa (Sevastapol) 31.3
  -Bremen 34
  -Sjaeland (Copenhagen) 36
  -Ile de France (Paris) 43
  -Limousin (Limoges) 37.8
  -Holland (Amsterdam) 37.2
  -Zeeland (Flushing) 37.6
  -Brabant (Brussels) 42
  -Flanders (Antwerp) 37.2
• Climate 5
  -Serbia (Belgrade) 31.6
  -Bulgaria (Sofia) 30.0
  -Croatia (Zagreb) 32
  -Moravia (Brno) 28
  -Bohemia (Prague) 34
  -Salzburg 29.1
  -Austria (Vienna) 36
  -Angora (Ankara) 38.7
  -Livland (Dorpat) 18.7
  -Kurland (Riga) 23.2
  -Mazovia (Warsaw) 25.3
  -Danzig 28.4
  -Holstien (Hamburg) 32.9
  -Brandenburg (Berlin) 35
  -Saxony (Dresden) 32.2
  -Hesse (Frankfurt) 38
  -Bayern (Munich) 36
  -Lorraine (Nancy) 34.2
  -Ostlandet (Oslo) 31
  -Svealand (Stockholm) 31
  -Gotland (Visby) 29.7
  -Champagne (Rheims) 36.3
  -Franche Comte (Besancon) 34.9
  -Lyonnais (Lyons) 35.6
  -Schwyz (Zurich) 36
• climate 7
  -Ingermanland (St Petersburg) 17.2
  -Moscow 13.6
  -Smolensk 16.7
  -Kazan 8.2
  -Ukraina (Kiev) 21.4
  -Iceland (Rekyavik) 31.5
  -Nyland (Helsinki) 26
  -Bergenhus (Bergen) 32.7
  -Trondelag (Trondheim) 26.4

I haven't really completed North America yet, but you can see the pattern. With a few exceptions the European provinces line up quite well. In practive climate 2 is not much more severe than climate 3, and climate 2 convers a huge range of temperatures.

I think that climates 7 and 5 could easily be put in bands across North America to get this to work better. As is only Winisk, Athabaska and Chimo are climate 7 in North America. I'm pretty sure those should all be climate 0, I mean all are awfully cold. Whereas Minnesota and Anticosti are in the same climate zone as Yazoo! I have no idea why this came about, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[AndrewT]

Good work, Isaac. Once you and any helpers here get it sorted, post in the BR forum. Maybe we can get it in 1.08.

 

[unmerged(19088)]

Originally posted by TheSpirit
Here in Nova Scotia we are also affected by the gulf stream. Yesterday it was 15 degrees Celcius here while most of the rest of Canada was under 5.

Nice to hear! We're havin' a really warm period in Europe/Norway too right now, about 10-15 celsius the last days, (Oslo)... the winter will come to Oslo though...

 

[unmerged(19088)]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
There is definitely some winter in climate 2, but it's wrong. And why is Scania of all places the only European province in this climate zone?

• Climate 5
  -Ostlandet (Oslo) 31
  -Svealand (Stockholm) 31
• climate 7
  -Ingermanland (St Petersburg) 17.2
  -Moscow 13.6
  -Smolensk 16.7
  -Kazan 8.2
  -Ukraina (Kiev) 21.4
  -Iceland (Rekyavik) 31.5
  -Nyland (Helsinki) 26
  -Bergenhus (Bergen) 32.7
  -Trondelag (Trondheim) 26.4

Just to enlighten you: Oslo/Østlandet is a far colder place than Bergenshus in the winters... Trøndelag is probably also warmer than Østlandet. ('cause of the Siberian frost)

Østlandet has few wintermonths in the game I know... but that's certainly for gamepurposes, (being capital, supportlimit etc.)

But anyway, nice list!

(What province is Scania)

 

[unmerged(2356)]

So... is it true that it never snows in Paris or Flanders (Brabant, Zeeland, etc) A bit unrealistic, right?

Also, perhaps I am wrong, but I don't recall seeing snow in the Pyrenees, while Tirol seems to have very little snow.

Wallachia has almost none... and I can tell you from experience that Wallachia should have snow... at least one month out of the three Winter months. Dobrogea should have about a month or two every other year. Transilvania and Moldova seem to be coded right, although I'd like to see two months of snow more often...

Many a Turk froze his arse trying to take our lands.

 

[unmerged(17856)]

Nice work Isaac, during the break I'll make some chanegs for the merger at least, unless you wanna submit them yourself

We've got to keep in mind the effects in the game of 'snow-winter' months. Mainly attrition. I believe the severity of attribition penalities are also controlled in part, by the level of technology for your army. I know it effects naval attrition. Temperature does not necessarily take into effect wind chill, which is an incredibly important factor for NA. The jet stream is much more unstable in this continent, when compared to Europe.

I would not write off snow as being a minor factor in comparison of temperature, snow is an incredibly important factor as it not only soaks through your clothes and boots, it slows down your army like crazy. I feel linking the decision to link occurance of a 'snow-month' with attrition is perfectly accurate.

Can anyone elaborate on the specifics of the 'bug' problem? I assumed we could just make climate changes in the province.csv file. If we were to apply Isaacs et als changes, woud this increase CtDs?