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Sunspawn

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Quite frankly, personally I abandoned Stamford Bridge in favor for later dates, such as the coronation of Baudouin III as king of Jerusalem or Henry the Lion's inheritance of Saxony. The Seljuks splintering is going to be awesome with Horse Lords - directly conquer a couple extra duchies and exact tribute from the rest as Angevin Jerusalem.
 

Wizzington

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Thank you for your response. I am aware that history files take a lot of effort to compile, but personally I enjoy a variety of game starts in EU4 between 1444 and 1492 mostly. Even made a few customary bookmarks for these.

I think the statistic about game starts is misleading in several ways:

(1) The first start could be the most picked simply because it is easiest to pick it. Less time spent deciding/scrolling down. It's Bounded Rationality.

For example, I have no problem dialing the start date up to the exact month and day of certain historical events (I later modded extra Bookmarks), but sometimes I just click a random nation in the 1444 Start to check out a new feature (such as Karma). I click a random Buddhist nation in 1444 and play it for about 5 minutes. That still counts as one game start.

(2) People could also pick the earliest start because they feel like they want to get the most out of the game.

The irony is most games never last till the end date (1820 for EU4), so they could have started later and played just as long.

(3) The game slows down much in late game in EU4, so that many players tend to quit in the 1600s or 1700s. They might worry (only partly correctly) that a later game start will mean a slower game.

How is it misleading? I didn't say WHY people don't play later starts, just that they don't, and that it's something we've seen consistently across our games. If we ever make a EU5, it'll almost certainly only have one start date (possibly two or three highly detailed ones) because the immense work that would be needed to improve later starts has basically no payoff.
 
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LikeNothing

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How is it misleading? I didn't say WHY people don't play later starts, just that they don't, and that it's something we've seen consistently across our games. If we ever make a EU5, it'll almost certainly only have one start date (possibly two or three highly detailed ones) because the immense work that would be needed to improve later starts has basically no payoff.
To me the WHY matters because if people are not playing later starts due to some trivial causes (some of which I listed), then if you remove some of those causes perhaps they'd be playing the later starts more. Knowing the WHY would allow one to affect the WHAT, if you will. But I understand if making later start dates more popular is not a goal for you. Your cost-benefit analysis sounds about right.

I also agree with you on EU5. 3 Starts (~1450, ~1600, ~1750) would be sufficient. Most Historical Grand Strategy games (such as some CIV mods I helped make back in the day) only ever have 1 or 2 Starts/Scenarios despite covering longer time periods than EU4.
 
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Sunspawn

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To me the WHY matters because if people are not playing later starts due to some trivial causes (some of which I listed), then if you remove some of those causes perhaps they'd be playing the later starts more. Knowing the WHY would allow one to affect the WHAT, if you will. But I understand if making later start dates more popular is not a goal for you.

I also agree with you on EU5. 3 Starts (April 1453, ~1600, ~1750) would be sufficient.
Made the start dates more specific for you mate.
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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Specifically, it's the day before Constantinople falls, so you can play as Byzantium but with no army and the Ottomans besieging your capital with a 100% win chance.
It would certainly make the acheivement for restoring the Roman empire as the Byzantines empire more "interesting"
 
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Nyrael

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Perhaps that is because your history files are not so accurate or fun after 1444.

Perhaps that is also why you spend less effort on those history files.

It's a chicken and egg problem.

IMO at least, if you made the Napoleonic Wars bookmarks as balanced and realistic as the 1444 bookmark, surely more than 0.1% of people would play them.

Nope, it would not help: majority of players will choose the earliest possible bookmark each time, no matter how historically accurate or balanced it is (1399 was horribly balanced, but 95%+ players played with it).
The problem are the people: they feel like they will lose if they will get a smaller game if they start at another bookmark. That is, they look at having as many years as possible to play with and don't even try to think about choosing another bookmark. They don't even give the later one a moment of consideration.

I myself like to start with later bookmarks (that is, I choose a bookmark most fitting for the nation I want to play with), but let us face it: later PI games will have one or two bookmarks and we will have to depend on mods for more.
 
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Wizzington

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To me the WHY matters because if people are not playing later starts due to some trivial causes (some of which I listed), then if you remove some of those causes perhaps they'd be playing the later starts more. Knowing the WHY would allow one to affect the WHAT, if you will. But I understand if making later start dates more popular is not a goal for you. Your cost-benefit analysis sounds about right.

I also agree with you on EU5. 3 Starts (~1450, ~1600, ~1750) would be sufficient. Most Historical Grand Strategy games (such as some CIV mods I helped make back in the day) only ever have 1 or 2 Starts/Scenarios despite covering longer time periods than EU4.

It's unlikely to be because of 'trivial' causes due to the fact that it's so consistent across all our games.
 
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JagLover

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In terms of later starts none of the preset bookmarks sound particularly enticing as a scenario. .

Maybe some country specific bookmarks. Muscovy 1547 say. Or Prussia 1740 say would be more interesting.
 

ChildeR

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CK2 (whose 1066 start is if anything more detailed than default Charlemagne start) also has this issue, in that 99+% of starts will be in the earliest date available to the player. It's something we've seen across all our games. More detailed (and fewer) later starts might see a percent or two starting there at most.

This is really surprising to me since the different starts in CK2 are almost like different games. But nice to know.

Do you know which percentage of games is played all the way through, by the way?
 

Chamboozer

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It's unlikely to be because of 'trivial' causes due to the fact that it's so consistent across all our games.

My assumption is it's because of the mechanics of the game. People like to start customizing their country to the maximum degree possible, and starting with an idea set or two already finished gets in the way of that. In this sense, EUIV was designed to only really be playable from the start, if you don't then you're missing out on features. That and the world is empty. If people want to create an empire, it's easier to do so in a scenario in which there isn't already a giant Spain/France/Muscovy, etc.

It's harder to explain with regard to CKII though. My starts are all over the timeline and I don't know why people would limit themselves to just the earliest.

What kind of characters are the most commonly played? Is it a type that has a better position or is more prominent in the earliest start date?
 
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net.split

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I try to start as early as possible because I assume the game is balanced for it. For instance, investing resources into developing provinces and such is a long-term payoff; the later I start the less payoff I get for every such investment.

Of course I do also tend to stop in the 1700s. That's because the late-game just isn't very interesting. My early investments and decisions pay off, but they pay off by getting me into a "winning state" where the rest of the game is something of a slog that I already know how it will end. This is a problem most strategy games suffer from and few have figured out how to overcome. EU simply doesn't care about it because it's a sandbox without a win state in the first place (with achievements replacing the usual set of victory conditions).

That said I've had a tendency to tweak the start date a bit. My first lengthy campaign in EU4 was with Ragusa, and I advanced the start date until Montenegro appeared so I could start out by conquering them. Nowadays I don't need to do that so much thanks to improved skill and the use of custom nations.

EU would probably benefit overall by halting the game in the mid-1700s or so, before massive independence wars and Napoleon. Then they could make a new game to play that period, potentially barreling right through the Victoria age (and using a lot of Victoria's mechanics). This would probably increase the appeal of that game as well; Victoria's always set in a strange and less popular time period. A game that features the founding of the USA, Napoleon's conquests, and the British Empire at its height would be pretty fantastic and a perfect fit between EU and HoI.

This would let EU focus a bit more on its primary game elements as well -- the Renaissance and Age of Exploration.
 
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Siegfriedfr

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EU dynastic mechanics are ill suited for the medieval era of the game, and the napoleonic era is too much of a stretch.

Ideally, the game should start after the HYW/taking of constantinople by the Ottomans, and end in 1789 before the napoleonic area completely changed european warfare.
That's 337 years instead of 378.

Vic3 should start in 1815 and end in 1939
 
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Tom013

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This is really surprising to me since the different starts in CK2 are almost like different games. But nice to know.

Yeah, I think CK2 is the game that most benefits from its many starts. It's the only game I really play alternate start dates as well, almost always favoring 1066 over the earlier two. It's also where I think later starts would be most missed, though clearly the statistics show that even there it is a relatively low number.
 

Chewy Yui

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If we ever make a EU5, it'll almost certainly only have one start date

Ok thats fine, but could it be 1399 please :)
 
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Prodicus

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Personally I don't want a game where Russia, Austria, and the Ottomans are laughably impotent and unable to expand to their historical extent, which is what you always saw in EUIII 1399. It just doesn't feel like the early modern period to me without these states being superpowers.

Honestly 1453 is the best possible start year by an enormous margin. It avoids the HYW issue that taints English games, it puts all the historical great powers in a perfect position, and it is probably the most widely-accepted proposed starting year of the early modern era. Literally the only reason not to start at 1453 is Byzantium. And don't get me wrong, I've played me quite a few Blurple games in my day, but if we're talking historical plausibility here, the Byzzies were such a rotting husk of their former glory by the mid fifteenth century that including them almost feels wrong. They were a medieval power rooted in classical origins, and in this era they're just laughably out of place. More than that, they were the last remnant of Europe's first great civilization, and their death facilitated the rise of its second. It was literally an epochal event for Europe that set most of this period's narrative into motion. That's the sort of thing you want preceding your start date.

Of course I could just start at the 1453 start date, but I just feel dirty and weird not playing the grand campaign.
 
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federally

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Not enough peacetime mechanics to properly simulate the 19th century IMO

Vic 3, with a proper conversion from EU IV however...

What do you need peace time mechanics for? The US has been involved in some type of armed conflict for 222 out of the 239 years the government has existed.

You don't need many peace time mechanics to fill that out.

They could add in bookmarks about a country rising up and putting the US government in it's place, it would be awesome.

Though a less controversial move could be to just push the timeline earlier.
 
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RELee

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What do you need peace time mechanics for? The US has been involved in some type of armed conflict for 222 out of the 239 years the government has existed.

You don't need many peace time mechanics to fill that out.

They could add in bookmarks about a country rising up and putting the US government in it's place, it would be awesome.

Though a less controversial move could be to just push the timeline earlier.

This is the defining mechanic of the Victoria franchise, IMHO. I very seldom play the USA ... unless I want to play the Bully of the World.
 
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