will we see updates to pagan reformations? or its over with holy fury?

[junassa]

So to be potentially able not to choose any nature at all? What's the point?

I dunno; if I had to choose between say unyielding/bloodthirsty/Av/temp or astrology/bloodthirsty/AV/temp I may choose the latter. I'd give up flower wars but I hardly used that at all.

 

[rinehime]

So to be potentially able not to choose any nature at all? What's the point?

No, as he said, all the natures would instead be doctrines...

What I'd like is if instead of choosing a nature and two doctrines we just get to choose 3 doctrines and all the natures are converted to doctrines. Though PDX already made a decision on that, so it's unlikely to change.

In other words, the @Dragatus proposal is that there's only 2 categories: doctrine & leadership. You get to choose three doctrines and all the current natures would instead be doctrines. You'd probably need to rebalance things a bit, but it'd be less OP than just adding a third doctrine especially when they generally don't have drawbacks.

 

[knppel]

The idea as I understand it is that certain bonuses overwrite each other (indeed in the picked order). Examples already given above.
I'm more in favour of fixing the issue in favour of letting all picked things apply fully- natures, as I see it, are separated for a reason- with all in one pot, I could combine proselytizing, dogmatic and warmongering, which would on the one hand be quite powerful to spread, and on the other hand totally lack flavour (which is currently more defined over the picks in doctrines)-
To stick with the given example combination, it would be powerful at converting vassals and neighbours, but not at all define what to do they are converted after, as it lacks the more detailed aspects of the faith that are currently enforced on any reformed religion.
If it also serves balance reasons I can't really determine, but the current setup does a good job at also ensuring a reforming AI to have some flavour in their religion.

 

[Dragatus]

If it also serves balance reasons I can't really determine, but the current setup does a good job at also ensuring a reforming AI to have some flavour in their religion.

You make a valid point that AI reformed religions should have flavor, but I find most natures to already be quite flavorful. Warmongering, Peaceful, Cosmopolitan, and even Unyielding have no less flavor that the likes of Meritocracy and Stability. It's really only Dogmatic and Proselytizing that are lacking in flavor, but the chance to get both when there are 22 other doctrines available would be relatively low and even if the AI did pick both of those it would still have a slot open for a flavor option.

If that's not enough it would be probably even possible to set things up so that the AI never chooses to combine Proselytizing and Dogmatic.

On the other hand the player would be able to choose 3 flavor options and player reformations are a lot more common than AI ones.

 

[MateuszS]

I don't get it at all. Nature slot is basically "policy towards internal and foreign heathens" (convert/kill/tolerate them). If you remove it, how can you define it otherwise? Either you combine it with doctrines (but that means you can skip it by choosing internal management doctrines [Meritocracy-Incest-Equality] - "what about heathens, my lord?") or nature would somehow pop up based upon chosen doctrines (as above: what if you choose only internal doctrines?).

 

[knppel]

I don't get it at all. Nature slot is basically "policy towards internal and foreign heathens" (convert/kill/tolerate them). If you remove it, how can you define it otherwise? Either you combine it with doctrines (but that means you can skip it by choosing internal management doctrines [Meritocracy-Incest-Equality] - "what about heathens, my lord?") or nature would somehow pop up based upon chosen doctrines (as above: what if you choose only internal doctrines?).

Thanks man, this was pretty much what I meant to say without being able to analyze and rephrase it that well the other day. Was more like my stomach telling me doctrines and natures are not simply exchangable, but yeah, that's why basically. As in my example above, it could then also go the other way ("We will teach the heathens the true way!"- "Which is what exactly? again....?").

 

[Dragatus]

There can be an assumed default position on heathens and heretics built into the religions themselves. And while I see how certain natures would be incompatible (Warmongering vs Unyielding vs Peaceful or Cosmopolitan vs Dogmatic) I see no special reason why a pacifistic religion couldn't encourage proselytizing or why a warmongering religion couldn't be highly dogmatic.