will Vicky or HOI be responsible for a WW1 scenario?

[darth254]

we've seen both series in the past tackle WW1, with both Vicky I and Darkest Hour (HOI2 game) providing the scenario.

recently however, there hasn't been much in the ways of WW1, as both Vicky II and HOI3 took a pass on it. WW1 seems to be stuck in some sort of limbo, as each series has its strengths/weaknesses to reflect this conflict.

HOI - typically better suited for military strategy
Vicky - actually covers the WWI time period and reflects the economic strains of the war

is there any likelihood HOI4 or a Vicky III (if it is developed) will provide a WW1 scenario?

 

[Duke Von Hannover]

Historically Vicky has always run WW1, my view is that both can do WW1 justice, with Vicky3 providing a much better build up to the war.

In the RIF mod we plan on covering our alt-history ww1 and ww2 in the same Hoi4 game (1910-1955) We are certainly gunning for the interesting

 

[FOARP]

So, to the same post that appears every week, I will make the same comment I make every week:

WW1 belongs in HOI. WW1 featured convoy warfare, front-to-front warfare, between two massive coalitions - these are things that HOI simulates well whilst Vicky either simulates them badly or not at all. What's more, HOI literally has to include all of the weapons and tactics of WW1 if it is to simulate the 1936-48 period well, since all of the weapons and tactics of WW1 still existed in various parts of the world in 1936.

The fact that Vicky simulates economics better that HOI does, and perhaps peacetime politics better than HOI does, is neither here nor there - neither of these things makes Vicky any more suited to simulating WW1 than they make Vicky suitable to simulate WW2.

Finally, please consider the below map and think about whether it is possible AT ALL to simulate the campaign it portrays in Vicky:

And when you're done doing that please also consider that WW1 had at least ten other campaigns in which roughly comparable force-levels and levels of mobility were in evidence.

 

[FOARP]

PS - please also consider the things the game-devs themselves said about the difficulties they'd have in implementing WW1 in Vicky 2:

I really wanted submarines, but I didnt want half-assed submarines that were basically torpedo boats with a different name. Adding proper submarines would have taken longer than the entire expansion so it was not feasable. To work it would need:
- HoI3 style detection and sub hunting mechanics where ships need to be found randomly by patrols
- a different market and trade system where goods were transported so it could be attacked and sunk
- new blockade mechanics to make building submarines a good choice like Germany tried vs a stronger navy

And further:

Attempting to perfectly model WW1 was never on the list for Victoria 2 to be honest. Not to say we wouldnt try in V3, I was missing a few things pretty badly that base design did not allow to add in expansions. Submarines and blockades for example.

And also:

I can also agree that the game isnt really able to simulate WW1 completely and that has never been the idea either. Its not a wargame as such and WW1 historically takes place at the very end.

Basically, they might try to model warfare better in V3, but there's always going to be difficulty in modelling warfare properly in a game that is not, at heart, a wargame. HOI, on the other hand, is a wargame, and has to be able to model the kind of war that WW1 was since so many elements of it were present in the 1936-48 period.

 

[Denkt]

I rather have vicky do it, WW1 just feels like WW2 with less stuff, why not just play WW2 instead.

 

[shri]

I rather have vicky do it, WW1 just feels like WW2 with less stuff, why not just play WW2 instead.

Err.. Not really, you have different challenges in both wars, with the Germans being the common "antagonists", the WW1 had more clear differences in terms of techs, equipment, training etc whereas by WW2, all the majors due to losses were more or less on even keel.
Also in WW1, the Air war isn't so important but the Surface fleet actions in the Baltic, Adriatic and North Sea (strictly defensive) are very important, in WW2 your Luftwaffe takes care that no Naval landings are possible in Baltics or North Sea Coasts or Adriatic (these landings were planned by the British in WW1, with Churchill being one of the main instigators for it but dropped as Coastal Guns, Mines and Torpedo boats and other defensive equipment gave the Admiralty nightmares).

Again Oil war is secondary in WW1, population is the main key with ammunition being a close second (supplies). All in all, it is wholly different.

 

[FOARP]

I rather have vicky do it, WW1 just feels like WW2 with less stuff, why not just play WW2 instead.

WW1 was not "ww2 with less stuff" - it was a world war with a different set-up and a different balance of forces, in which some of the same challenges appeared but the answers were often not the same. To take one of many, many examples, someone playing as Germany could play liberator in Ireland and Finland, could support the Finnish Whites, could support the Bolsheviks in order to destabilise Russia, could try to bring Greece into their sphere, could carry out guerrilla warfare in East Africa, could conspire with the Mexicans - and all these things would be thoroughly historical.

What's more - Vicky literally CANNOT simulate WW1 properly. The devs basically say as much. Vicky is not a war game. HOI is a wargame and should be able to simulate the combat that took place in WW1 because similar things happened in the 1936-48 period.

 

[Zaku]

To be honest, neither Vicky or HOI could simulate a ww1 game very well. I think the best idea is to have a seperate game for it.
If I had to chose between the two, I would say HOI, but only with major changes in the gameplay.

 

[FOARP]

To be honest, neither Vicky or HOI could simulate a ww1 game very well. I think the best idea is to have a seperate game for it.
If I had to chose between the two, I would say HOI, but only with major changes in the gameplay.

I think some new mechanisms would be necessary (mainly around simulating dig-in better - in HOI games to-date units don't seem to notice the freshly-dug trenches all around them and always start digging their own), but these new mechanisms would also help WW2 be simulated better also.

I'm not saying that a stand-alone WW1 game couldn't be done (C:TGW and other WW1 games show that it can be done) but I think a WW1 DLC could both be good of itself and be good for HOI as a whole.

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

Albeit WW1 is in Victoria's timeline, I think it's much better simulated by HOI's mechanics. Obviously neither are perfect, but Hearts of Iron IV is first and foremost a war game, while Victoria tends to focus on the wider spectrum with economy and pops. So a WW1 DLC would definitely work better for HOI, and can probably introduce some new defensive mechanics to HOI4, and there's no reason why they couldn't flesh out trench warfare more for the game in general, but simply make it less effective in the WWII era due to bombings and tanks.

 

[FOARP]

Albeit WW1 is in Victoria's timeline, I think it's much better simulated by HOI's mechanics. Obviously neither are perfect, but Hearts of Iron IV is first and foremost a war game, while Victoria tends to focus on the wider spectrum with economy and pops. So a WW1 DLC would definitely work better for HOI, and can probably introduce some new defensive mechanics to HOI4, and there's no reason why they couldn't flesh out trench warfare more for the game in general, but simply make it less effective in the WWII era due to bombings and tanks.

I entirely agree. One of the problems with HOI games to date is that in every one of them it has been possible to carry out virtual blitzkrieg without actually bothering to build the weapons of blitzkrieg - it's possible in HOI3 to blitz Poland, the Low Countries, France etc. with pure leg-infantry or even militia. The game should do more to encourage players to build tanks and aircraft, and punish you with difficulty in defeating dug-in defenders if you don't adopt the new technologies.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

To be honest, neither Vicky or HOI could simulate a ww1 game very well. I think the best idea is to have a seperate game for it.
If I had to chose between the two, I would say HOI, but only with major changes in the gameplay.

Agreed, I'd prefer a standalone WW1 game based off of HOI, ala Darkest Hour.

 

[FOARP]

Agreed, I'd prefer a standalone WW1 game based off of HOI, ala Darkest Hour.

Errm . . . Darkest Hour wasn't a "standalone WW1 game", it was a HOI wargame with a WW1 start-date as well as WW2 start-dates, which is pretty much what people are talking about adding to HOI 4 in a DLC. The problem is that people often think that having a WW1 start-date means you have to have a 1914-48 play-through, but there is no reason why this should necessarily be the case (whether or not it is desirable is a separate matter - all I'm saying is that it is not necessary).

 

[GeneralPetrov]

Errm . . . Darkest Hour wasn't a "standalone WW1 game", it was a HOI wargame with a WW1 scenario, which is pretty much what people are talking about adding to HOI 4 in a DLC.

You're not wrong, but I was ignoring the rest of the game. I was just trying to come up with an example. Regardless I think it should be standalone.

 

[FOARP]

You're not wrong, but I was ignoring the rest of the game. I was just trying to come up with an example. Regardless I think it should be standalone.

It would be great if Paradox wanted to do that, but what we've heard so far is that Johan isn't interested. Of course, he can always change his mind. A WW1 DLC could actually be a good proof-of-concept for such a game.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

It would be great if Paradox wanted to do that, but what we've heard so far is that Johan isn't interested. Of course, he can always change his mind. A WW1 DLC could actually be a good proof-of-concept for such a game.

I think a big problem is that some feel that WW1 is too big to be a DLC, and too small to be an entirely separate game.

 

[FOARP]

I think a big problem is that some feel that WW1 is too big to be a DLC, and too small to be an entirely separate game.

DLC's like Sunset Invasions have been added to in subsequent DLCs - if WW1 proves too big a task to completely cover in a DLC (and hopefully it won't - at least not judging by the amount of work that went into TOG) then they can release something that basically covers it and add to this subsequent work.

 

[Evan05]

Due to the nature of WW1, I don't think either game could really do the stalematey, trench warfare that WW1 was. I think it would be sweet if Paradox made a game dedicated to WW1, and the aftermath and reconstruction of said war.

 

[frolix42]

I hope World War 1 stays with Victoria.

• Victoria 2 did World War 1 badly, but this does not mean that Victoria 3 cannot do World War 1 well.
• Victoria is already by far the shortest of the major franchises. Removing the last third of Victoria will kill that franchise.
• "Stand-alone" Clausewitz games suck. Maybe they don't 100% "suck", but I'd rather have Paradox work on a major franchise. This is not my opinion, Sengoku and March of Eagles sold terribly. Unless a stand-alone WW1 game is a definate upgrade over Hot4, it's not going to sell well either.
• An offical Paradox WW1 game with the HoI4 engine would effectively move the start date of HoI4 to 1914. This would effectively make HoI a World War franchise with a historical focus on World War 1. I don't want that.
• Paradox can develop the HoI engine, modders can make a World War 1 scenario with it. That is the most efficient use of everyone's time.

This thread isn't even cold: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/ww1-1914-cold-war-dlc.898678/

 

[FOARP]

the stalematey, trench warfare that WW1 was.

I think I've made my point: WW1 was not blitzkrieg, but (as the above maps show) there were significant campaigns of manoeuvre throughout the conflict of exactly the kind that HOI is good at modelling. People fixate on the Western Front between the years 1915 and 1917, but this was far from the whole story, and even that front saw significant movement in 1914 and 1918.

WW1 belongs with HOI - it's that simple.