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Emperor Leo

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This is probably a question that only Devs can answer, but will Victoria 2 be more user friendly than the first game? I got Victoria Complete (couldn't register, due to no code on Complete editions), but it was so complicated that I gave up after trying to work it out. I tried again a few months later but, again, just couldn't get into it.

Will Victoria 2 be kinder for newcomers? I'm not asking for a dumbed down game, just a less steep learning curve?
 

Meothar

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It has to. Victoria is a great game but it's controls are totally outdated. Modern games can be accessible and complex.

Probably some veterans would sacrifice colored graphics if they could get another level of complexity for this, but I like my games playable ;).
 

unmerged(75409)

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I have no doubts that the game will be fun, but when users asked in a thread about if there will be an interface overhaul before release (i.e. revising the interfaces we saw in the screenshots so far) the answer was deafening silence.

I hope that they do a really thorough overhaul of the interface before release, with some dedicated beta testers or professional testers. The point about Vic1's bad interface has been made very often so I think it's likely they got the point.
 

unmerged(75409)

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Probably some veterans would sacrifice colored graphics if they could get another level of complexity for this, but I like my games playable ;).

Veterans' opinions my ass. I am a veteran, I played the original Vic1 from 2006 to 2009. I had fun with it. But just the other day, I played Civ4 for some days, and realized again how much MORE fun it is when you have a really good interface. :eek:o Civ4 BTS is to me an example of how you can take a game with many different aspects, and make it fun to play. It has many different information layers, symbols on the map that highlight where the newest popup will take you if you click on it, a huge help menu only one mouseclick away, and more information filters than you can ever use. My favorite interface feature: Finding out what the combat odds of a given unit against another enemy unit on the map are, by simply dragging the route-planner onto that enemy unit. :)

Paradox games also have those information filters (10,000 different popup message settings) yet in ten years of making games they never got around to program simple graphical cues that tell you WHERE on the goddamn map the next click on "Go to" will take you. You still have to read the damned popup to see if refers to a battle in Moscow or the Central Atlantic Ridge... :mad:
 

Orinsul

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God i hope not.
Victoria was the first paradox game i ever played, and i didnt read the manual or even glance at the cards until after a week of playing, and i still cant understand all these people who say it was hard to play, WE already know the Interface has been reformed, BUT the game doesnt need to be simplified in order to have a better designed Interface.
The DD's have made it wuite clear what the new interface will be like, and so there is your question answered, it wont be easier to use, but it will be alot easier to find things to use.
 

unmerged(51702)

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I just got my hands on vicky/ricky just some days ago and o'boy the beginning was TORTURE. The simple lack of interactive tutorial is simply absurd seeing the complexity of the game. HoI1 and 2 both had a very good tutorial and I think the whole complexity can be well maintained if paradox just makes the effort to bring about a clear in-game introduction to the concept.

I admit that HoI2 gets boring gradually because apart from war there is litte one can do, so it's super that Victoria takes all aspects of a nation into consideration. It doesn't have to be simpler, just clearer.
 

King

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Firstly we have an obsession with tool tips. These display more information about what is going on in the game to a player if they are interested. This should make life easier straight away. Now the interfaces you have seen so far I believe are already better than the ones in Victoria. However these are not final and we will be tweaking them more as we get a better feel for how they are working at the moment.
 

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I love expanded tool tips, especially when you hover over a descriptor tag and not just clickable buttons.
A tutorial would be great. Even if it's just a few videos of Johan playing the game and taking players through it
"Now, I am reforming voting rights. To see how this has changed PoP issues, we open the ...."
 

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I must say that with the recent patches, EU3 + HTTT has extremely helpful inteface with all the tooltips and I can only hope that the same ideas are used with V2.
 

TempestDK

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I don't understand the condescending attitudes some have towards players who didn't get V1s interface or game play.

Maybe you are a genius who could figure out how everything worked within hours. ... but I played V1 when it was released, and it was horrible to figure out. The interface was confusing, the manual non-existent, and game-play was complicated.

I spent more time on the boards reading posts about how POPs worked, and Manufacturing, Politics etc., than actually playing the game. It should not be a requirement that you need to spend hours on a forum to be able to learn and enjoy a game.

IF V2 is just as confusing, I would certainly NOT find it fun or worth my money.

That being said, I am sure it will be a lot better than V1. First of all, the developers are good at explaining their ideas in Dev Diaries and if you look at the latest games they have made, both manual and interface are usually pretty good. Even HOI3 is better than V1 in that regard.

So I am confident that, although still a complicated game, PI knows what they did wrong in the first game and have taken steps to correct that for V2.

Problem I have with tool tips are that they don't explain how things are connected, they just explain what a button does. Also in previous games, PI have not always been good at correcting those tool-tips during patches, so you can end up with tool-tips that are incorrect, because one patch changed how something worked.
 

Skarion

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Maybe you are a genius who could figure out how everything worked within hours. ... but I played V1 when it was released, and it was horrible to figure out. The interface was confusing, the manual non-existent, and game-play was complicated.

Yes, though try Ricky - most of it is sorted out and things feel more logical there.

I do think the game should keep it's depths, but generally more info and better layout would be awesome. Though IIRC the devs has already adressed that this is to be fixed in their DDs.
 

gadajs

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The problem with Vicky was that you needed a very large amount of knowledge about the game before you were able to do absolutely anything. I bought the game, tried it out and left it alone for about 3 years, before I read a couple of good gameplay AARs (OHgamer, I am looking at you) which illustrated things, and from then on, happy times. The game was not too complex, just astoundingly poorly explained. Better tool tips and a proper tutorial would have solved it.
 

kierun

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Firstly we have an obsession with tool tips. These display more information about what is going on in the game to a player if they are interested. This should make life easier straight away. Now the interfaces you have seen so far I believe are already better than the ones in Victoria. However these are not final and we will be tweaking them more as we get a better feel for how they are working at the moment.

Cool. That is good.

Will there be a tutorial that introduces features in a hands on manner or just a series of screen shots?

And will we have a nice downloadable strategy guide for those of us who buy your games via gamersgate?
 

King

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Cool. That is good.

Will there be a tutorial that introduces features in a hands on manner or just a series of screen shots?

And will we have a nice downloadable strategy guide for those of us who buy your games via gamersgate?

I have a meeting about the tutorial today.
 

unmerged(75409)

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IMHO lack of tutorial was the biggest mistake in Vicky.

That, and the lack of information within the game. Tooltips are great to give you info on a particular item, but often you are looking for more global info...
- Why am I running a deficit?
- Which of my factories will give me the most profit if I expand them?
- How much
- What products do my POPs import?
- What does "HMS government" mean? How is this government type different from others?
- Which of my army stacks is currently fighting, and in which region is it stationed? Which army stack needs reinforcements?
- Which of the seven army stacks currently visible on the map is winning its fight, and which one is in danger of losing?
- What is the terrain type of the provinces my armies are advancing through? Are the enemy units standing along a mountain range or are those provinces flat ground?

That was pretty important info in Vic1, especially the economic questions. The game told you in a very informative way what your daily production numbers were, and how much each good costed, but I found it very difficult to figure out how any of this related to the overall performance of my economy.

Often you would come to a specific interface screen with a specific purpose: - you would check the factories screen in the ledger to see what the profit per POP in each factory is, because you want to expand some of them
- you would check the trade goods screen on the left hand pane of the map view to see if you are lacking any goods, because you might need to readjust your import settings if that is the case
- you would check the military units view in the left hand pane to see if you forgot any armies or navies in faraway regions
- you would cycle through the units on the map itself to see how your battles are progressing, and in what shape your units are.

However few of the interfaces were actually suited to these tasks. Cycling through the units on the map was a horribly time consuming job, it was one of the main reasons why during war you would spend 99% of your time in paused mode. On the map you could see where your units where, but you had NO info on vital information, such as
- in what shape are my units (are they in danger of annihilation? can they attack?)
- how is the battle going
- how many troops are actually in these seven divisions

You needed to cycle through the view to see this. I honestly hated it. In EU2 there used to be small horizontal bars below the units, which indicated what the strength of a unit was. This was not perfect but something like that would greatly have helped in Vic... an option that makes the game show green or red bars below the units, indicating how their strength (in relation to max.strength) was doing. Units in danger of being wiped out would be immediately visible.

Same with the terrain. The terrain view on the map was barely usable - all provinces had the same brown-greenish tone, so to see which province has which terrain (because you were for example planning the advance of your Russian armies into northern India, which is 40% impenetratanle mountains, 30% hills and 30% open plains) you needed to pause the game again, and click on a bunch of provinces. Then memorize which was which terrain. Simla: Mountains. Kandahar: Plains. Then order the advance of your armies.

Another thing: The factories page in the ledger. Oh how I hated it. The info was there, but to find the really crucial info (what is the per-POP productivity of each factory) you still needed to divide total profit by number of POPs, the page would not actually show you this info!!

See what I mean? Warfare was a chore in Vic because of the lack of interfaces. Running your economy required you to do calculations in your head which should have been there on the map.

Paradox games are great because they are complex. But when it comes to interfaces, i.e. letting gamers see the data, they just make a huge spreadsheed and dump all the raw, unprocessed data into it without a second's thought about WHAT THE GAMER WANTS TO SEE. That's what I mean about Paradox games not having good interfaces.
I have a meeting about the tutorial today.

Thank you for this news :D
 
Last edited:

Emperor Leo

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This sounds good. Thanks for the input, King.

I'm willing to give Victoria 2 a try, as it looks pretty good. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Victorian era is a bit ropey, so I imagine that doesn't help. One of my biggest concerns with Victoria Complete was that it came with no manual at all. It may have had a PDF manual on the disc, but I want to be able to read it whilst I'm playing or away from the PC.