Will Venice's Culture Ever Flip?

[bodhi]

Hi,

I'm playing as a Custom Ruler Designed Patrician, of Pictish culture, in Venice. I have been the Doge for many generations, with each of my heirs having very high Stewardship. However, the culture of the county of Venice does not seem to want to change.

From Googling, I've read conflicting reports saying that it's not possible to convert the culture of Venice as a Doge (only invading Feudal Lord)

Does anyone know if what I'm trying to do is possible? If so, how's the best way to do it?

Please only comment if you have similar experince of doing what I'm trying to do, ie: playing as a dodge of Venice, with a non-bording far-off culture. Not "oh, I played as the Feudal King of Lombardy, annexed Venice, and my Fuedal Baron was able to easily convert Venice to Lombard"

Any help, pls....

 

[thevmag]

It should be possible. I've got here a couple of republican vassals who managed to slowly convert the local landscape. It just takes a really long time sometimes, and even my personal feudal holdings required more than several generations to become properly civilized. Unless the difference here is "republic vassal, but with same culture feudal lord", time should be all you need. If it IS that these doges have a same-culture feudal lord, then it's time to start kidnapping claimant babies.

 

[bodhi]

That proves that Merchant Republics can convert conquered local foreign cultures. I've played Venice a lot, so I already knew that.

What I'm doing now is that I began the game as a patrician with a culture that's "alien" to Venice. And I'm trying to get the province of Venice to flip to my culture.

The reason I doubt it can happen is because I have read some people say that it's not possible to do it this way. There is some lame hard coded stuff for Venice that prevents the Dodge changing Venice's culure from Italian. New patrician families in Venice will always spawn as Italian, the province culture itself wont flip, etc.

I don't know how true this is. But that's what I've read.

 

[thevmag]

Not seeing anything on the wiki about Venice in particular, just that it's easier to convert provinces that border your culture, making islands difficult. However, As Southern England shows, isolation doesn't make it entirely impossible.

If there's anything special to Venice, it's news to me.

 

[bonixavier]

By starting in Venice as a different culture character, you'll never convert its culture. It has to either border your culture, which doesn't happen since it's an island or it has to be conquered with a casus belli that sets a conquest_culture, such as invasion or claim war. That's why Venice will stay Italian all game long if the basileus conquers it with a de jure war, but can convert if the player fabricated a claim (I don't think the AI will fabricate claims on things they already have a casus belli for, but I could be wrong).

 

[Kljunas]

By starting in Venice as a different culture character, you'll never convert its culture. It has to either border your culture, which doesn't happen since it's an island or it has to be conquered with a casus belli that sets a conquest_culture, such as invasion or claim war. That's why Venice will stay Italian all game long if the basileus conquers it with a de jure war, but can convert if the player fabricated a claim (I don't think the AI will fabricate claims on things they already have a casus belli for, but I could be wrong).

There's a new event in the Reaper's Due, if you put your crown focus on the province and it prospers enough you might get the option to pay money to switch its culture/religion.

 

[bodhi]

By starting in Venice as a different culture character, you'll never convert its culture. It has to either border your culture, which doesn't happen since it's an island or it has to be conquered with a casus belli that sets a conquest_culture, such as invasion or claim war. That's why Venice will stay Italian all game long if the basileus conquers it with a de jure war, but can convert if the player fabricated a claim (I don't think the AI will fabricate claims on things they already have a casus belli for, but I could be wrong).

Thanks for confirming and explaining why. Like I say, I'd read that it wasn't possible to do it the way I wanted to do it, but there was no explanation - so I appreciate that.

Really sucks that there is no way for the Doge of Venice to affect Venice's culture. It's possible to change religion but not culture - why Paradox? The restriction just prevents a lot of nice role playing potential for players of Venice. I had an entire back-story for why Venice's culture changed in my game - now that story is not possible.

It should be possible, by culture converting all of your Patricians (which is actually possible), for them to affect the possibility/chance of culture change. I mean, if all of Venice's ruling elites are of the same culture then the province should switch too, imo. Yeah, it might require a little extra programming as it wouldn't work by the standard culture flip mechanics, but hey.

Just really lame and lazy of Paradox.

 

[bodhi]

There's a new event in the Reaper's Due, if you put your crown focus on the province and it prospers enough you might get the option to pay money to switch its culture/religion.

Hmm, I have RD DLC. I wounder if that will fire for Venice at some point. Or if they've totally neglected us Merchant Republic players with that event.

 

[Carsomyr Khan]

Hmm, I have RD DLC. I wounder if that will fire for Venice at some point. Or if they've totally neglected us Merchant Republic players with that event.

You should be fine unless Venice gets constantly ravaged by disease and war. The only requirements for the event are that the county is flourishing or booming(prosperity level 2 or 3) and that its current ruler has a different culture(duh). MTTH of 40 years, and is reduced if your ruler has higher learning, stewardship, smart traits, is diligent, etc.

 

[bodhi]

Sounds good, Carsomyr Khan. Venice is currently Flourishing, so I'll do all I can to keep it that way and hope it fires.

 

[Rags17]

FWIW I had something similar and I DID manage to convert culture on an island.

I played as a custom Croatian Holy Order with a titular title. After many adventures (FWIW I did an AAR) I managed to invade Malta with a fabricated claim. I somehow managed to get the option to "Import Settlers", this flipped the local culture from whatever the hell it was (Berber ?) to Croatian. I remember reading that this event was designed specifically for this purpose, ie isolated islands that can't be influenced by an adjacent province.

:

I just checked the files and found the relevant event in /events/culture_conversion_events.txt, it's the second event in the file. The MTTH is 1200 months (ie 100 years), with positive modifiers based on Stewardship and depopulation - at 15+ Stewardship and depopulation level 3 the net total modifier is 0.08 for a MTTH of 96 months of 8 years. Without the depopulation the net MTTH is 32 years.

In summary, the event SHOULD fire for you on average after 100 years, if your Doges all have good to excellent Stewardship then expect it to fire after around 32 years. With bad luck this could be anywhere up to 150-200 years.

EDIT - Note that for the above event to fire you want the area to have NEGATIVE prosperity, ie depopulation, not positive, so you may win either way (ie via the above event or via the new RD event). Good luck !

 

[Kljunas]

FWIW I had something similar and I DID manage to convert culture on an island.

I played as a custom Croatian Holy Order with a titular title. After many adventures (FWIW I did an AAR) I managed to invade Malta with a fabricated claim. I somehow managed to get the option to "Import Settlers", this flipped the local culture from whatever the hell it was (Berber ?) to Croatian. I remember reading that this event was designed specifically for this purpose, ie isolated islands that can't be influenced by an adjacent province.

:

I just checked the files and found the relevant event in /events/culture_conversion_events.txt, it's the second event in the file. The MTTH is 1200 months (ie 100 years), with positive modifiers based on Stewardship and depopulation - at 15+ Stewardship and depopulation level 3 the net total modifier is 0.08 for a MTTH of 96 months of 8 years. Without the depopulation the net MTTH is 32 years.

In summary, the event SHOULD fire for you on average after 100 years, if your Doges all have good to excellent Stewardship then expect it to fire after around 32 years. With bad luck this could be anywhere up to 150-200 years.

EDIT - Note that for the above event to fire you want the area to have NEGATIVE prosperity, ie depopulation, not positive, so you may win either way (ie via the above event or via the new RD event). Good luck !

Yeah but the settlers event won't fire as pointed above since his Venice doesn't have a conquest_culture flag. The "monetary incentive" event in rip_prosperity_events.txt is the one that'll work.

 

[Mummolus]

It should be possible, by culture converting all of your Patricians (which is actually possible), for them to affect the possibility/chance of culture change. I mean, if all of Venice's ruling elites are of the same culture then the province should switch too, imo. Yeah, it might require a little extra programming as it wouldn't work by the standard culture flip mechanics, but hey.

Just really lame and lazy of Paradox.

It's neither lame nor lazy - historically a ruling elite does not change the dominant culture of an area. If it did, Spain would speak Visigothic or Arabic or Berber rather than Spanish, which derives from Latin. England would speak French, France would speak German, Russia would speak Swedish, and so on.

 

[thevmag]

It's neither lame nor lazy - historically a ruling elite does not change the dominant culture of an area. If it did, Spain would speak Visigothic or Arabic or Berber rather than Spanish, which derives from Latin. England would speak French, France would speak German, Russia would speak Swedish, and so on.

It's a very very very ambiguous abstract. The culture change in-game represents everything from peasant-nobility interaction changing the face of the local culture, to enough foreign labourers moving in as to displace the local population, to foreign cultures and languages being taught or ubiquitously present as to make the local ways slowly die out...

You know. Like how Anglo-Saxon and jute presence so completely overshadowed the preexisting Celtic population; or how Norman rule so completely scarred the Anglo-Saxon culture that, to this day, English is swarming with French loanwords and rules; or how so many local languages are getting replaced with English or have English as a default language known by everyone, after only a single generation of British or American occupation. I suppose the vast majority of Central and South America still speak the local pre-Columbian languages, since the ruling Spanish elite would have no effect on the dominant culture of the area.

 

[bodhi]

Yeah but the settlers event won't fire as pointed above since his Venice doesn't have a conquest_culture flag. The "monetary incentive" event in rip_prosperity_events.txt is the one that'll work.

And work it did! Just got the event about funding Pictish labour and, voila! - Venice is now Pictish. Thanks again, I was about to give up on this playthrough as I thought it'd be impossible.

 

[raistlin_wizard]

It's neither lame nor lazy - historically a ruling elite does not change the dominant culture of an area. If it did, Spain would speak Visigothic or Arabic or Berber rather than Spanish, which derives from Latin. England would speak French, France would speak German, Russia would speak Swedish, and so on.

According to Paradox in Charlemagne start Galicia speaks German. (Suebi culture is portrayed as Central Germanic for some reason). Visigothic at least is in the Iberian group. But I don't know why they just dont call all of it Iberian. Calling a latin culture visigothic feels wrong. (Having german suebi as the main culture in west Iberia IS wrong).

 

[bodhi]

It's neither lame nor lazy - historically a ruling elite does not change the dominant culture of an area. If it did, Spain would speak Visigothic or Arabic or Berber rather than Spanish, which derives from Latin. England would speak French, France would speak German, Russia would speak Swedish, and so on.

Sorry, but it's very lame indeed that, up until the most recent DLC, there has never been a way for Patricians/Doges to flip Venice's culture. The ruling classes can, have, and do influence culture change through legislation (largely). Think about who sanctions foreign workforces - workers who then settle in their new land but also add a little of their own culture to regions.

And that's the only way culture has ever been changed in CK - via top-down feudal Lords making decisions in the game. It's simplistic but works ok as a game mechanic.

 

[Thure]

According to Paradox in Charlemagne start Galicia speaks German. (Suebi culture is portrayed as Central Germanic for some reason). Visigothic at least is in the Iberian group. But I don't know why they just dont call all of it Iberian. Calling a latin culture visigothic feels wrong. (Having german suebi as the main culture in west Iberia IS wrong).

They called themself Visigoth even if many of them were speaking a Latin language. Just like the Lombards historically.

 

[Jia Xu]

Venice is Greek in my current game. It was conquered by Byzantium at some point. I don't remember when. I'm not sure which event fired to change it, but it's definitely Greek now.

 

[raistlin_wizard]

They called themself Visigoth even if many of them were speaking a Latin language. Just like the Lombards historically.

AFAIK claims of heritage to the visigoth legacy are from the tenth century onwards and in the 8th century people saw visigoths as alien invaders and surrendered easily to muslim forces because they though they were better than the alternative, and that's why it only took 11 years to conquer the whole penninsula. (I mean the people, not the ruling minority).

(But at least we both agree on Suebi culture on Galicia being Central Germanic wrong, don't we?)