Will there be Fallen Empires for all Ethos..es on Release?

[m4st3rm_]

Fanatic collectivist could be "The Perfect Society" - they decided they have achieved perfection, and resist communication because all "outsiders" could do is slow them down. Maybe focused on building some crazy megaproject or something. Might awaken upon completion of their grand project, in the late game, and would then be a huge threat. Or, alternately, ignores everyone at all times unless directly harassed. Mass AI revolt purging the galaxy? Meh. Hideous eldritch abominations from a catastrophically failed FTL experiment eating the younger races? Not our problem. A young race intruding on our space? Death! Vengeance! Annihilation!

 

[BrokenSky]

Fanatic collectivist could be "The Perfect Society" - they decided they have achieved perfection, and resist communication because all "outsiders" could do is slow them down. Maybe focused on building some crazy megaproject or something. Might awaken upon completion of their grand project, in the late game, and would then be a huge threat. Or, alternately, ignores everyone at all times unless directly harassed. Mass AI revolt purging the galaxy? Meh. Hideous eldritch abominations from a catastrophically failed FTL experiment eating the younger races? Not our problem. A young race intruding on our space? Death! Vengeance! Annihilation!

I like the giant mega-project Idea. Maybe they're trying to take the final step to built transcendence machines to link their consciousnesses, so that they can better share knowledge and experience, in order to strengthen the whole. Or maybe they've already done it? I dunno.

 

[Caspoi]

The collectivist and individualist fallen empires could be determined by their idea of "trancendance" with indiviualists striving to turn each individual to something akin to a physical god while collectivists trying to merge all of their identities into a hive mind.

 

[BrokenSky]

Fanatic Individualists - Hedonistic Debaucherers. Their citizens are too busy engaging in pleasant activities to be productive, so they don't construct buildings, do research or colonize planets if you retake them. The only reason they maintain a military is because the assemblies for the ships are automated, and because some of their people find military life enjoyable, either because of bloodlust or because the uniforms attract ladies/sirs.
They are highly arbitrary in nature and act as fancy strikes them, but they do recognize the will of others, so they might or might not attack you if you are too warlike, as that must mean that you like fighting as well, or if your average happiness is too low and they can't stand it, or really if they feel like it. On the plus side, you can usualy placate them with gifts.

I really like this. For the outside maybe they seem inconsistent and arbitrary, because it's actually the actions of a dozen different groups of people who meet up because they all have a desire to do one thing right now? So maybe they'll attack you with one ship because a bunch of people decided to go on a joyride and spread fun and explosions to all .

Imagine 4chan or Anonymous with Forgotten Empire level tech

 

[Teije]

Forget about those degenerate fallen empires.

The really important thing is to determine the proper plural of ethos for use in Stellaris discussion.

Ethoi, Ethoses, Ethosis, Ethods...

Ethoi sounds good to me.

 

[ProfPain77]

Presumably the difference would primarily be in the trigger for their awakening.

Well, I like the pacifist trigger already mentioned. Do we have to tie it to tech?

Some ideas:

Enforced Ship Limits
Fanatic Militarists - Chance of being triggered by the battleship or final fleet cap expanding tech (think Washington Naval Treaty) if an empire is above a certain size threshold

Genam Convention
Fanatic Pacifists - Chance of being triggered by the final set of assault army attachment techs on planetary invasions or full orbital bombardment if empire > certain size

Universal Emancipation
Fanatic Individualist - Chance of being triggered with the final set of slavery techs, if an empire is of a given size and has a certain amount of population enslaved

Share the Wealth
Fanatic Collectivist - Chance of being triggered with the final set of energy cap techs, if an empire is of a given size and has a certain amount of energy stored

 

[Agathors]

Hey, I never said that collectivism is evil or that all collectivist states would end up like this, just the kind that would go on to be a stagnant Fallen Empire after being a developing Empire. (Though, for the record, I do think that collectivism is evil and that all collectivist states would end up like this.)

Fanatic Collectivists - Communistic Planners (could use a better name). Consumed by a communistic revolution at some time in their development, they are stagnant because a planned economy doesn't really work that well. They live behind the iron curtain, their leaders hiding from them the fact that your living standards are much higher than theirs as all money goes into building up the fleet. To keep the populace cowed, they will occasionally target the weakest empire they can find to fight a quick victorious war. If you're targeted, you may speed up the process by sending a proclamation of surrender, losing influence in the process.

 

[BrokenSky]

Forget about those degenerate fallen empires.

The really important thing is to determine the proper plural of ethos for use in Stellaris discussion.

Ethoi, Ethoses, Ethosis, Ethods...

Ethoi sounds good to me.

This is actually a really important point .
But yeah I've been having a problem with the plural of ethos. Ethoi sounds good

 

[aitaituo]

Fanatic collectivist could be "The Perfect Society" - they decided they have achieved perfection, and resist communication because all "outsiders" could do is slow them down. Maybe focused on building some crazy megaproject or something. Might awaken upon completion of their grand project, in the late game, and would then be a huge threat. Or, alternately, ignores everyone at all times unless directly harassed. Mass AI revolt purging the galaxy? Meh. Hideous eldritch abominations from a catastrophically failed FTL experiment eating the younger races? Not our problem. A young race intruding on our space? Death! Vengeance! Annihilation!

Fanatic Collectivist Fallen Empire

This Empire has long shed the meaningless divisions between individuals, classes or peoples. They are operating as one being posessing billions upon billions of bodies, independent yet nothing more than a "instance" of a greater mind.

The Empire lies dormant, vehemently protecting it's borders for intruders. Until the day comes where they will harvest the galaxy to add the younger species to their being.

Nobody knows how often they have done this already. But the scant data available points to 'many, many times'.

 

[uplift17]

I think of the classic militarist fallen empire as being the Antarans from MoOII. Ideally in Stellaris they'd act similarly, sending you the occasional threat and sending a small war fleet to raid you every now and again to prevent you from getting too uppity, with a slightly larger fleet each time. It'd be a nice ramp up to the end game.

 

[ImperatorThax]

The 2 Fallen Empires we know about so far both seem to be there, not as simple impediments to an empire becoming powerful, but as speed bumps on the way to game warping events related to their Ethos. The Holly Guardians guard Holly Planets(/Tomb Worlds?), which are probably full of tons of wonderful happiness and totally no extradimentional horrors, while Keepers of Knowledge get angry if you try to research the various MalTech in the game. I have no idea what the Xenophile and Xenophobe Fallen Empires will care about, but I think they will have a similar purpose.

I can then think of a few ways to include Militarist, Pacifist, Collectivist, and Individualist Fallen Empires, but the mechanics they would be tied to are more complex, definitely something for expansions/DLC if Paradox decides to go in the direction of anything like them. Based on what we have so far, I would guess that a Militarist Fallen Empire would be triggered by you building a superweapon, ala Death Star. A Pacifist Fallen Empire could be triggered by the forming of a Star Chamber type league of planets. A Collectivist Fallen Empire could care about galactic wonders or some type of super strategic resources. And finally, an Individualist Fallen Empire might be tied to, I don't know, some sort of Leader enhancing relics or something of that vein.

 

[zukodark]

These are the ideas I like the best:
Militarism: civil war, or preparing for a greater threat, or waiting for worthy enemies. These all seem interesting.
Pacifist: pacifist utopia, with great weapons to protect it.
Collectivist: great builders.
Individualist: hedonistic debaucherers.

 

[EmperorZelos]

I think Militarist is about glorifying conflict and military actions. In that case, I think having them go on a warring spree every decade or so where they destroy a few fleets then peace out, as a "rite of passage" for the new generation of captaind or something of the likes.
That could very well be extremely frustrating, though, if you get attacked at the wrong time.

I am so modding that in if it's possible

 

[wingren013]

Fanatic Pacifists: super isolationist, will intervene against excessively militaristic empires

Fanatic Militarists: Try to make sure that they remain the biggest kids on the block, will cut large empires down to size, threaten nearby empires for tribute, and intervene in galactic cataclysms. Basically lording over the galaxy with a loose but iron fist, players will be able to easily form an alliance against them.

Collectivist: no idea. Maybe reacting extra strongly to affronts?

Individualist: Basically random. Act like a mix of other ethos according to the whims of their leader.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

These are the ideas I like the best:
Militarism: civil war, or preparing for a greater threat, or waiting for worthy enemies. These all seem interesting.
Pacifist: pacifist utopia, with great weapons to protect it.
Collectivist: great builders.
Individualist: hedonistic debaucherers.

Yeah, any of these could work. The key is for them to be so absorbed with something that they've become stagnant and aren't doing anything else most of the time. I do really like the idea of pacifists living with nature once again, far from the dangers of the universe.

Xenophiles work well as the sort of peaceful observers that don't want to interfere with the universe until some point. As for ways they might interfere, some options could be demanding that your leader come with them to study or join their empire or suddenly try to abduct POPs from your empire. Maybe warn you against attacking certain empires from time to time or being opposed to interference with primitives.

Xenophobes are a problem, since it is really hard to have them as anything except isolationists. Then again, maybe that would work fine. They're just a Fallen Empire without much mechanics beyond that. A giant treasure monster, so to speak.

EDIT: Gave it a bit more thought, and one option for Xenophobes could be an empire that's basically just a whole bunch of machines telling you to stay away. Why are they doing that? You don't know. Maybe their protecting a race that's currently in suspended animation waiting for something. Maybe the race they're defending has devolved to a pre-space flight species. Maybe all of the planets of that race became so isolationist that they didn't even want anything to do with one another anymore. You'll have to actually overcome the machines to find out, or wait until they otherwise awaken.

 

[ikki]

i would imagine all exist, although i doubt any randomly generated map has more than 1-4 present.
Militarists would i imagine care about monsters beyond the galaxy. So don't mess with them, you'll need them as allies later.

Individualists would be the ones in the center of the galaxy that invite all tired of war, conflict etc to live on a ringworld.

Collectivists. Tough one.

Pacifists, would care about races being exterminated? Everyone is guilty of war, even they themselves. As they have survived, they must have warred even if only in self-defence. But they would and will never ever tolerate extermination.

Xenophiles. Hmm. kinda seems covered already.

Xenophobes. Even harder. Quit uplifting more disgusting aliens?


Anyways. frankly. With a single ringworld (+200.000.000 energy,+100.000.000 minerals +400.000.000 research etc..lots of buildings on ~100.000.000 slots ), any additional planets & mining stations are kinda superfluous. So a fallen elder empire should really just have that single star, with a ringworld. Or even several ringworlds formed into a sphere of sorts. And then battlestations and space stations all over to the point of being able to shoot from all 20 stations at the same time at anyone intruding

 

[Abayonett]

How would that be meaningfully different from Xenophobic Isolationism though? Just being more forceful about it?

They could be in constant civil war status.

 

[TimeMask]

Let's see.. Militaristic fallen empire could be "Nuked themselves to oblivion" or "Building up massive force to conquer the galaxy and everything beyond, reason they haven't bothered to do so yet is that they don't see rest of the galaxy as threat so they don't bother to do that until they are ready." Pacifist fallen empires could have something like "Peace Keeper" random monster from Sword of the Stars that goes around galaxy and forces factions to stop wars. Collectivist fallen empire could be something like "Everyone shares a body" or even "Space emperor" thing, individualistic could be just something like "We do whatever we want" I guess?

 

[Murmeldjuret]

Xenophile:
Gardeners of Diversity: Busy sitting creating new life and genetically designing servants and friends. Really don't want people to go around teching AI too aggressively, nor any enroachment of borders. They are willing to trade, especially with other xenophiles.

Xenophobe:
Bastion of Purity: They are convinced any other specie is unclean and potentially dangerous to even go near. As such they will destroy any ship going near their border and declare war to remove any colony near them, never going a certain distance from their border, afraid they might become tainted. Good luck with diplomacy.

Pacifist:
Upholders of the Compact: 15000 years ago the galaxy lived in peace, and all nations signed a galaxy wide contract stipulating a few things. Such as never more than 15 battleships, no anti-planet weapons, no settling planet Ixail, etc. Most signatories are long gone, but not this FE. They remind all the young races the treaty still holds by saying "You have too many battleships according to clause 15.e-1456. We are required to inform you that you have 1 month to correct this. Have a good day." Perfectly reasonable and amicable with no intent of warring, and they are so sorry they have to enforce the compact. Always willing to do diplomacy but only for short durations as they don't entirely trust new nations who werent there.

Militaristic:
Paranoid Defenders: They are sure other dimensional threats can come at any moment, just like they did so long ago. They are also sure that any citizen or independent thought might be indicative of infiltrators. They sit and build ships at the same rate they purge ships for suspected infiltration. The more you interact with them the more they are convinced you are out to get them. You just look weak because that is how "the others" want you to look.

Intergalactic Vanguard: A forward force sent by a distant empire through a supergate. Supergate broke down and now they are stranded in this galaxy. Their directive is to establish a beachhead, and they have done exactly that. So now they are a hyperadvanced force without any instructions, and really don't want to do anything on their own initiative as it violates their military doctrine. They should have the scariest fleet by far but be smaller in size. Anyone who starts to come near them in terms of military power might have to be preemptively attacked to secure the beachhead, and woe to the one who goes aggressive expansion near them.

Collectivist:
Unity Eternal: They are convinced they have achieved perfection. They have an optimal amount of everything, and want for nothing, expansion will just risk losing the perfection they have obtained. They do not even accept gifts as it is needless. They will also be the hardest to provoke into conflict, but really dont want you doing anything inside their borders or pushing their borders back as you would be disturbing their perfect borders.

All as One: They have basically removed free will and sort of exist in semi-conscious stupor. Think of a hive mind that really really botched it. It might be starting to lose it. Might have -75% productivity -100% ethos divergence. It turns out that free will might be useful for something and it is starting to feel more and more jealous at other younger nations who have it. Might attack some to get at their free will deposits, especially if they are good at teching, because it really would like to remember how to do that.

Individualist:
Anarchist Federation: The government has basically fallen, some pun intended, and all that is left are a few particularists just going about their daily lives. Which is nothing in particular. Their leader is powerless and can not even perform diplomacy legitimately, so good luck with that. They have far more fleets than other FE but each is smaller, as people don't trust each other with military power. It is more an empire in name than in practice. Though if anyone threatens or provokes them, you will find a very resilient enemy. They really really don't like the idea of a space emperor or any dictatorship gaining too much land.

 

[Vasious]

• Spiritualist: Guardians of the Holy Worlds and Tomb Worlds - Triggered by messing with them
• Materialists: Keeps of Technology - Triggered by messing with dangerous Tech
• Collectivists: : Aiming for some Borg like collective - triggered to go assimilating when Races advance to a point they have something to offer the collective.
• Individualist: Decadence and Debauchery - rather than being triggered themselves they accidentally unleash a doom ala the fall of the Elder in 40k or the Creation of the Black Moon by the Saurians in Nephilim
• Xenophobe: Absolute Isolationists - Probably only triggered by poking them
• Xenophile: Benevolent observers -
• Pacifists - Triggered by younger rages conducting purges
• Militarists: Strength through conflict - every so often kicks over anthills so the survivors grow back stronger