Will the unrealism of EU2 regarding India remain in EU3?

[unmerged(59432)]

Will the unrealistic provinces of EU2 regarding colonization of India remain in EU3?

I think this deserved a seperate topic:

Actually, India comletely occupied by Europeans in 1700 EU2-style was rather silly. Up until the 18th or at least the middle of the 17th century such things should be impossible.

Yes, you are quite right - direct confrontation with Indian states on their own turf was an imposibility for European powers based halfway across the world - instead, it took 100 years of carefull diplomacy (i.e. playing off Indian states against each other), to get to where Britian was in the 1850s.

States like the Mughals and Maratha Confedracy afterall had acess to huge wealth (Mughal yearly revenue having been greater than the entire UK treasury), large navies, powerfull artillary, and huge masses of manpower.

That is one of the things I found unrealistic about EU2 - the worst part of it was how entire provinces on the Indian peninsula, which probably had populations larger than many European countries, and independent kingdoms, could be 'colinized' in the same way as some North American buffalo plain.

The reality was far different - European colonization amounted to carefully negotiated enclaves granted by the kingdoms, i.e. not much more than, to quote a European officier of the time "a fortress and all the land around it that could be reached by cannon".

I seriously hope nothing that absurd is in EU3.

Yes, the British rule of India didn't begin until 1858. The game ends at 1789. European imperialism isn't (shouldn't be) covered by this game, only the build-up to it.

I agree, and by simplifying the RotW such things can't be done. With "speedbumps" we'll have an Indian subcontinent in desperate lack of provinces, nations and events, making it not only more boring to play an Indian nation but also impossible for the European player (or AI) to do anything in India that is in line with reality.

Instead of a historically correct slow, laborious and dangerous diplomatic progress or "game" based on naval supremacy and trade combined with cautious military interventions in India, perfect for the late game when things usually (judging by EU2) had started to get way to easy, we might just see the EU2 thing repeated. Send colonists to the Goa province, raise huge armies in Europe and sail them across the entire world to subdue the whole of India in perhaps five wars around the late 16th century or whatever. Doh...

Hmm, are the East India Companies going to be in the game at all? Do we know anything about that?

This issue needs to be addressed, as it is quite a large one. I dont perticularily care about the East India trading companies - I know they might be hard to impliment in the game, but I definatly wouldn't want to see a repeat of EU2's ludacris colinization of India, where powers could move in and take massive provinces as if they were uninhabited. As mentioned above, there shouldnt really be any colinizable provinces on the Indian peninsula.

India already had a city larger than Rome under Marcus Aurelius and a population of 50 million, by the time of the Mauryan Empire in 300 BCE (one third of the world's population at the time, with 600,000 armed infantry, 30,000 cavalry, 8,000 chariots and 9,000 elephants) [1] - therefore it likely that by the 1400s, when EU3 starts, India had a population equal to or greater than Europe, and historical documents show that every part of the country was controlled by a state, even if it was a minor kingdom, or a loose province.

It is extreamly unrealistic how given these facts, in EU2, there were huge provinces in India that could simply be settled, often by European powers.

Reference:

Boesche, Roger, "Kautilya's Arthashastra on War and Diplomacy in Ancient India", Journal of Military History 67, (January 2003), Pages 9-38

 

[Gobi]

It's hard to know what will happen to India, I really hope that Paradox increases the amount of Providences India has. I also hope that they do not have colinizable providences as well. Now the reason India will be hard to deal with is because the major power in the region during the game's time period, I.E. the Mughal Empire has a chance of never showing up. The Timurid Empire from what I heard from a beta (It's one of the Dev Dairies calm down) has a chance of not breaking a part if manage properly. So will Delhi dominate the region now? Will there be a huge Indian cultural group now making it easier to have huge AI Indian Empires? From what I’ve herd now countries have cultures I.E. Scandinavian that means they get the Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish all fall under it. Still have providences with Swedish culture but the country Sweden has the Scandinavian culture. I don't know, but it might make India, with the huge manpower it should have a very hard nut to crack.

 

[unmerged(59432)]

That culutral group thing could work out well for large Indian Empires - I think in the unpatched version of EU2, India was all one culture - 'Indian' - but was broken down in later patches, along lingual lines (just as China was).

I wonder if an Empire large enough is created, there might be an event that allows the adoption of 'Indian' as a cultural group, and lets you slowly convert provinces culture as lingual differences fall away?

Perhaps if the Timurids do not break apart, they might still try invading India, but with severe cultural penalties due to being 'Persian'. Whatever the case, it should indeed be a tough nut to crack, as you said.

 

[Skarion]

India was conquered as a whole twice I believe before the British did it.

 

[OHgamer]

India was conquered as a whole twice I believe before the British did it.

Ehm....no

closest to come were the Mughals, and even they failed to get more than a token recognition of overlordship from the Cochin-Tranvancore areas

Delhi sultans never made it south of the Hyderabad region - checked by the rise of Hindu Vijayanagar, and given the amount of disunity among the Delhi regime (5 dynasties in 3 centuries, and regionalism among both Muslim and Hindu statelets rampant during periods of dynastic transferral).

Asoka's Maurya empire had some fleeting control in the Deccan, but was a North Indian-Ganges Valley based empire, as were the successor Gupta and Harsha empires (and Harsha barely lasted one generation)

 

[unmerged(37697)]

I'd love to be playing as France in about 1640 and casually exploring the Indian coast, only to discover a reinvigorated Timurid Empire stretching from Samarkand to Beijing via Delhi.

 

[unmerged(59432)]

India was conquered as a whole twice I believe before the British did it.

As OHgamer said, that isnt accurate. Furthermore, the Mughals did something that no other attempted conquerers did - they tried to blend in. You cant really conquer a country the size of India for long unless you become a native. The Mongols, whom the Mughals came from, were fundamentally sucessfull because of cultural integration.

As soon as Aurangzeb, a Muslim conservative, took power, the Mughals collapsed. They had relied on Hindu Rajput armies to hold their empire together, and on Hindu peasants to stay loyal - as soon as he instituted the jizya tax on non-Muslims, tried to proliferate Islam and destroyed temples, the dynasty's fate was sealed.

 

[unmerged(63576)]

Hope it wont be to late for Johan and the other staff members to change this before the game comes out.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Hope it wont be to late for Johan and the other staff members to change this before the game comes out.

To change what? AFAIK no one (outside the beta) has seen a screen shot of India in 1453 or has any experience playing countries involved in that region...

 

[unmerged(63576)]

thats... true. sorry

 

[unmerged(59432)]

I guess until we do, we can only assume that the same situation as EU2 is present...

Afterall, there is a lack of developmental information on how Asia has changed in EU3.

Thats where valzoz is coming from, and where I am coming from.

Are beta players allowed to comment on the provinces?

If so, maybe one can comment on what the situation is like.

 

[Registered]

I guess until we do, we can only assume that the same situation as EU2 is present...

Afterall, there is a lack of developmental information on how Asia has changed in EU3.

Thats where valzoz is coming from, and where I am coming from.

Are beta players allowed to comment on the provinces?

If so, maybe one can comment on what the situation is like.

We have only two screenshots of Asia
This one, of eastern Siberia. And this one, of Korea, that one is very encouraging, note the increase in provinces. But i'm not sure what to think of the Ming presence on Sakhalin.

EDIT: AFAIK Beta testers are not allowed to comment on anything unless Johan has given the go ahead.

 

[Gobi]

I guess until we do, we can only assume that the same situation as EU2 is present...

Afterall, there is a lack of developmental information on how Asia has changed in EU3.

Thats where valzoz is coming from, and where I am coming from.

Are beta players allowed to comment on the provinces?

If so, maybe one can comment on what the situation is like.

woah, woah, woah, let's not go that far. If you look at a picture of Korea the provadences have been completly reworked. So I would imagine that India will at least get more provadences. All the other stuff I have no idea and thus the speculating.

 

[unmerged(59432)]

Hmm, looks nice - I plan on playing as Korea now

 

[unmerged(1823)]

Well...

India has been reworked, by some Indian members of the research team..

There are no empty provinces in India, so europeans need to fight for their presence.

Here's a small screenshot of south-central india.

 

[Registered]

There are no empty provinces in India, so europeans need to fight for their presence.

Wonderfull news

EDIT: That is one small army BtW.

EDIT2:BtW, isn't it supposed to be Coromandel instead of Caramandel?

 

[Joohoo]

Sweet.

 

[unmerged(59432)]

Well...

India has been reworked, by some Indian members of the research team..

There are no empty provinces in India, so europeans need to fight for their presence.

Here's a small screenshot of south-central india.

That is wonderfull, thankyou.

You guys really treat your fans well

 

[unmerged(6777)]

/me resists the urge to say "I told you so"

 

[Gobi]

Well...

India has been reworked, by some Indian members of the research team..

There are no empty provinces in India, so europeans need to fight for their presence.

Here's a small screenshot of south-central india.

Looks good thanks for showing us the new India. Very nice