Will the performance ever be fixed?

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Alblaka

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No, the devs have no interest in providing a playable game. Performance will get gradually worse with each release, even when the game is already factually unplayable. Sales indicate that's the best way to get high review scores and consequently revenue.

If that answer sounds weird/wrong/false to you, you are correct, and the real question is 'Was OP's question really necessary?'


Sarcasm aside, performance is being worked on. Technically 2.2 runs better than previous versions, except that there are one-to-a-few bugs that cause massive performance drops (some of which are already fixed in the beta branches) under certain circumstances. Which has people missinterpreting as '2.2 has worse performance, why do they never work on that?!'.
 
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Ramiren

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No, the devs have no interest in providing a playable game. Performance will get gradually worse with each release, even when the game is already factually unplayable. Sales indicate that's the best way to get high review scores and consequently revenue.

If that answer sounds weird/wrong/false to you, you are correct, and the real question is 'Was OP's question really necessary?'


Sarcasm aside, performance is being worked on. Technically 2.2 runs better than previous versions, except that there are one-to-a-few bugs that cause massive performance drops (some of which are already fixed in the beta branches) under certain circumstances. Which has people missinterpreting as '2.2 has bad performance'.

Isn't it weird how the people with thousands of posts and every Paradox game under the sun on their accounts are coming out of the woodwork to make excuses. It doesn't matter if the bugs are in the process of being fixed, and it doesn't matter if we call those bugs performance issues or not. What matters is this is a wide spread problem that should have been impossible to miss, yet somehow it made it to launch and now almost two weeks later we can't play the game we paid for. The little details of how we describe the bug don't really matter when this should never have been sold to us in the first place. I mean saying "they're fixing it" is like asking me to praise the guy who slashed my tyres because he's now back with a puncture repair kit and a guilty look on his face.
 

jumbi

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Isn't it weird how the people with thousands of posts and every Paradox game under the sun on their accounts are coming out of the woodwork to make excuses. It doesn't matter if the bugs are in the process of being fixed, and it doesn't matter if we call those bugs performance issues or not. What matters is this is a wide spread problem that should have been impossible to miss, yet somehow it made it to launch and now almost two weeks later we can't play the game we paid for. The little details of how we describe the bug don't really matter when this should never have been sold to us in the first place. I mean saying "they're fixing it" is like asking me to praise the guy who slashed my tyres because he's now back with a puncture repair kit and a guilty look on his face.
The person who slashed your tyres did so solely out of malice. Stellaris' lag problems arose as a consequence of Paradox's attempt to provide you with a better product. Could 2.2 have used a bit more time in the oven? Possibly. Are Wiz and Grekulf laughing maniacally at the side-effects of their machinations? Certainly not, they've already done a fair bit of work on the beta branch to fix quite a few of the performance and associated issues. Paradox may have a rocky release now and again but they always get things sorted rather quickly.
 

Riftwalker

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I never finished even 1 game on map bigger then medium because of lags.

i mean, is it really that required to play on maps bigger than medium? I prefer medium because large tends to have too much free space, and so i'll never go to war because outposts are cheaper than claims.

Yes the problem is bad algorithms that are maxing out the single core they're using. Bad algorithms should never be a thing, but if the game were multithreaded the stress from that bad coding would be spread across multiple cores meaning we'd be less likely to suffer bottlenecking like we're seeing in 2.2.2.

except... video games tend to need sequential programing, and multithreading will still often have threads bottlenecked by the main thread. like if you have a thread to update all your pops, any updates that use pops has to wait for that thread to be done anyway...

if you DON'T do this, multiplayer sync is almost impossible(without dedicated servers), since multithreading is extremely random in what threads will be prioritised and if you're constantly waiting for other threads to finish, you haven't multithreaded, you do the norm, which is to have a few multi threads on non sequential loops, and the main thread often waits for these threads to be done.

Stellaris and most of the other games it makes, are actually just very big CPU games, they update a LOT of information and trying to keep the tick speed up on these, requires CRAZY optimization. (I tried to make a little copy cat of HoI in my free time and i quickly ran into optimization being a main focus.)
 

Ramiren

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The person who slashed your tyres did so solely out of malice. Stellaris' lag problems arose as a consequence of Paradox's attempt to provide you with a better product. Could 2.2 have used a bit more time in the oven? Possibly. Are Wiz and Grekulf laughing maniacally at the side-effects of their machinations? Certainly not, they've already done a fair bit of work on the beta branch to fix quite a few of the performance and associated issues. Paradox may have a rocky release now and again but they always get things sorted rather quickly.

Well from what I've read Wiz has already buggered off to his super secret new project. My point wasn't that it was done with malice, my point was it was an action that shouldn't have happened in the first place, so you get no praise when you fix it. I don't think this was malice, I think this was greed. I don't think any reasonable person would see either the AI or performance issues as something any reasonable human being could miss, I think this was launched undercooked because they wanted this out before Christmas.

Paradox may get things sorted rather quickly, and I can forgive missable bugs being sorted post-release, however when the bugs are obvious, should never have made it to launch and you're fixing them on my time after I've paid for your product, sorry but that isn't good enough. You sold me a game and I can't play it because you decided your end of the deal (money) was more important than mine (a working game).
 

Mikhail_Mengsk

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They are working on it. Unfortunately, 2.2.2 update broke the game for some (probably has to do with NVIDIA drivers, don't know), introducing stuttering from day 1 regardless of every game setting. Hell if I know why, but at least people said overall there was less lag. Lucky them, i guess; i can't play.
 

Mikhail_Mengsk

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i mean, is it really that required to play on maps bigger than medium?

Are you kidding? I mean, i usually never go for more than 600 stars, but playing in bigger galaxy is a game feature, it's not something "extreme" the players do that "normal" players can skip and/or will never really experience. Besides, before 2.2 i could play in big galaxies full of AIs and never experience lag (maybe i was just lucky?).

Have i misinterpreted your post, or are you seriously at the point where we should take for granted that base game feature aren't supposed to work?
 

Alblaka

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Isn't it weird how the people with thousands of posts and every Paradox game under the sun on their accounts are coming out of the woodwork to make excuses.

Let me cast Vicious Mockery as a Reaction here:

Isn't it weird how the people with a hundred and some posts (or less! Imagine that!) are coming out of the woodwork to ask generic questions, which everyone who spends ~5 seconds thinking about can already give an answer too?

No, not really, because OP (hopefully!) didn't actually want to have a legitimate question answered, but merely wanted to complain about the same thing we've been going up and down most of the forum's first page for about 12 days (eh, maybe it's 11, don't think people got too much into the lategame performance issues on release day, given it was evening).

Isn't it weird how the people with thousands of posts and every Paradox game under the sun on their accounts are coming out of the woodwork to make excuses. It doesn't matter if the bugs are in the process of being fixed, and it doesn't matter if we call those bugs performance issues or not. What matters is this is a wide spread problem that should have been impossible to miss, yet somehow it made it to launch and now almost two weeks later we can't play the game we paid for. The little details of how we describe the bug don't really matter when this should never have been sold to us in the first place. I mean saying "they're fixing it" is like asking me to praise the guy who slashed my tires because he's now back with a puncture repair kit and a guilty look on his face.

Round 2!

Isn't it weird how the people with a hundred and some posts (or less! Imagine that!) are coming out of the woodwork to start asking how such an obvious and glaring issue could ever have been missed and how Paradox should have never sold/released anything but perfectly bugfree (or, if the person asking is somewhat reasonable; 'free of critical issues') updates and usually imply that Paradox is a big scheme of scams and whatever-else they can come up with?

Again no, because obviously the people not following PDX developement practices too closely are not too aware that this is a regular thing that basically happens every other release in most of their running game franchises (just go and post a "Hey, can anyone label me updates that were shipped with really critical bugs or broken features" in any of the game's subforums. You will get responses. Some of them even truthful and/or reasonable).
It's called Agile Developement. You release iterations in the shortest possible intervals, to get the maximum amount of feedback in the shortest possible timeframe. You do not spend overly excessive amounts of resources on doing everything pixel perfect and releasing it in a single big go, but instead settle for producing gradual upgrades to an existing product, not all of which might provide the same value or are of the same quality. And before you claim otherwise, it works. Agile Developement, Scrum and the various offsprings of that are the next step in software developement. I could quote studies here, but screw that because noone would read them anyways, if you have enough brain to understand the matter, you shouldn't have trouble Googling that.
And it's working. And people are supporting it. Because otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about a game that wouldn't exist, created by a guy who has just a couple days ago announced he's moving to work on yet another project that is being funded by the successes we have just hypothetically refused to accept.

The one core gripe that I have with this, however, is that Paradox is not providing THIS VERY POST'S POINT as a public explanation.
The release is not meant to be bug free (I mean, in an Utopia, it would be, but it will never be), because it's too inefficient for the developement cycle. Instead you get an unstable release, alongside being freely able to play the previous 'stable' version via Steam branching. You can buy the DLC and play what is effectively an Open Beta, or you can not buy the DLC and play the Open Beta, or buy the DLC and not play the Open Beta, or not buy the DLC and not play the Open Beta. The options are all there. But because PDX doesn't explicitely list them to people, all they see is "I bought and it has bugs, why no fix?". (And before someone makes the false advertising argument: No software advertisement ever claims it's free of bugs and no legislature anywhere enforces quality standards on software, except in relation to protecting sensitive data. And if you start trying to compare software developement with something like food quality controls/standards, I'll hack your brain with a banana, because that statement is approximately the same level logic.)


PS: And now I've gone and ranted an essay again. Excuse me whilst I grab some food, get a good drink and play some Stellaris. I need fun now, and repeating myself takes the fun even out of otherwise enjoyable arguments.
 
A

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Paradox may get things sorted rather quickly, and I can forgive missable bugs being sorted post-release, however when the bugs are obvious, should never have made it to launch and you're fixing them on my time after I've paid for your product, sorry but that isn't good enough. You sold me a game and I can't play it because you decided your end of the deal (money) was more important than mine (a working game).

In the last few years it's become seemingly acceptable for publishers to shit in consumers mouths then apologise after the fact (after money has changed hands) and fix it later.

I think it's come to a point where gamers are facing this with every purchase and the well of goodwill, even for well reputed companies, is drying up rapidly

it is possible to learn from past mistakes, look at the egosoft X rebirth title, then look at the state of release for X4, far from perfect but the difference is night and day, because the furore around X rebirth nearly killed the company, and alienated a huge chunk of an already niche fanbase.
 

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Are you kidding? I mean, i usually never go for more than 600 stars, but playing in bigger galaxy is a game feature, it's not something "extreme" the players do that "normal" players can skip and/or will never really experience. Besides, before 2.2 i could play in big galaxies full of AIs and never experience lag (maybe i was just lucky?).

Have i misinterpreted your post, or are you seriously at the point where we should take for granted that base game feature aren't supposed to work?

it was merely a "large maps aren't even worth it to me" comment.
 

Ramiren

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Let me cast Vicious Mockery as a Reaction here:

Isn't it weird how the people with a hundred and some posts (or less! Imagine that!) are coming out of the woodwork to ask generic questions, which everyone who spends ~5 seconds thinking about can already give an answer too?

No, not really, because OP (hopefully!) didn't actually want to have a legitimate question answered, but merely wanted to complain about the same thing we've been going up and down most of the forum's first page for about 12 days (eh, maybe it's 11, don't think people got too much into the lategame performance issues on release day, given it was evening).



Round 2!

Isn't it weird how the people with a hundred and some posts (or less! Imagine that!) are coming out of the woodwork to start asking how such an obvious and glaring issue could ever have been missed and how Paradox should have never sold/released anything but perfectly bugfree (or, if the person asking is somewhat reasonable; 'free of critical issues') updates and usually imply that Paradox is a big scheme of scams and whatever-else they can come up with?

Again no, because obviously the people not following PDX developement practices too closely are not too aware that this is a regular thing that basically happens every other release in most of their running game franchises (just go and post a "Hey, can anyone label me updates that were shipped with really critical bugs or broken features" in any of the game's subforums. You will get responses. Some of them even truthful and/or reasonable).
It's called Agile Developement. You release iterations in the shortest possible intervals, to get the maximum amount of feedback in the shortest possible timeframe. You do not spend overly excessive amounts of resources on doing everything pixel perfect and releasing it in a single big go, but instead settle for producing gradual upgrades to an existing product, not all of which might provide the same value or are of the same quality. And before you claim otherwise, it works. Agile Developement, Scrum and the various offsprings of that are the next step in software developement. I could quote studies here, but screw that because noone would read them anyways, if you have enough brain to understand the matter, you shouldn't have trouble Googling that.
And it's working. And people are supporting it. Because otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about a game that wouldn't exist, created by a guy who has just a couple days ago announced he's moving to work on yet another project that is being funded by the successes we have just hypothetically refused to accept.

The one core gripe that I have with this, however, is that Paradox is not providing THIS VERY POST'S POINT as a public explanation.
The release is not meant to be bug free (I mean, in an Utopia, it would be, but it will never be), because it's too inefficient for the developement cycle. Instead you get an unstable release, alongside being freely able to play the previous 'stable' version via Steam branching. You can buy the DLC and play what is effectively an Open Beta, or you can not buy the DLC and play the Open Beta, or buy the DLC and not play the Open Beta, or not buy the DLC and not play the Open Beta. The options are all there. But because PDX doesn't explicitely list them to people, all they see is "I bought and it has bugs, why no fix?". (And before someone makes the false advertising argument: No software advertisement ever claims it's free of bugs and no legislature anywhere enforces quality standards on software, except in relation to protecting sensitive data. And if you start trying to compare software developement with something like food quality controls/standards, I'll hack your brain with a banana, because that statement is approximately the same level logic.)


PS: And now I've gone and ranted an essay again. Excuse me whilst I grab some food, get a good drink and play some Stellaris. I need fun now, and repeating myself takes the fun even out of otherwise enjoyable arguments.

Your entire post reads like the most horrendous anti-consumer apologia I think I've ever read, "releasing a product with bugs then fixing them later is a development strategy". Sure it may be a development strategy, but if it results in unusable products it's only a matter of time before consumers start refunding your products and eventually stop buying them all together. As for the false advertising argument, that's a non-starter, products don't have to be described as working in the advertisement for consumers to assume they work. There's legal framework in almost every country that ensures products are sold in a working state unless the advertising specifies otherwise. For example in my country the Sale of Goods Act states that goods should be (amongst other things) fit for purpose. Products are always assumed to be working unless the advert specifies they aren't, which is why games are advertised as being in Alpha/Beta states or early access, and why goods on e-bay are listed as spares and repair or faulty when they don't work. The onus is on the person selling the product to inform the buyer on the status of the product, failure to inform leads to a default that it's a working product.

As I mentioned before, I can deal with companies fixing bugs after the game is launched as long as they've made every effort to eliminate them before they launch. If that means delaying the product because they spotted something near to release, then so be it. What I can't and won't deal with are companies knowingly releasing products with gross defects that prevent their use, because if your customers can't use your product effectively how in the hell did you use it when you were testing it?
 

HeilLoki

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i7 8700k @4,9GHz, 1080ti, game on M.2 SSD

It's sloooooooooooow, even on small galaxies... i hope they can fix it soon (I guess all the thousands and thousands of pops are the problem) and tell Imperator: Rome devs how to avoid these issues with pops. Same goes for the inevitable Vicky III release some time in the future.

Edit: Beta Patch seems to help, but maybe I'm just kidding myself and it's as bad as before (which is a likely scenario)
 

AlanC9

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In the last few years it's become seemingly acceptable for publishers to shit in consumers mouths then apologise after the fact (after money has changed hands) and fix it later.

Hold it. P-dox never apologizes for anything. This is just what they do. You're down with it, or you're not.

The only people who are hurt by the current methodology are unsophisticated players who buy DLC. If you don't buy DLC, you're exactly where you would have been if Paradox had delayed release, except for the two mouse clicks it takes to roll back to the earlier release.
 

AlanC9

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As I mentioned before, I can deal with companies fixing bugs after the game is launched as long as they've made every effort to eliminate them before they launch. If that means delaying the product because they spotted something near to release, then so be it. What I can't and won't deal with are companies knowingly releasing products with gross defects that prevent their use, because if your customers can't use your product effectively how in the hell did you use it when you were testing it?

"Prevent their use" is a high bar.

Who here has actually rolled back?
 
A

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Hold it. P-dox never apologizes for anything. This is just what they do. You're down with it, or you're not.

The only people who are hurt by the current methodology are unsophisticated players who buy DLC. If you don't buy DLC, you're exactly where you would have been if Paradox had delayed release, except for the two mouse clicks it takes to roll back to the earlier release.

I find your use of "unsophisticated" highly amusing, it tells me a lot about you.

And rolling back to when? The AI and performance have been shocking for a number of patches now, just to various degrees.