Will the Empire of Brazil receive some sweet flavor?

[gustavotoniato]

Yes, early Vicky for Brazil should really be a turning moment where the existance of Brazil as a unified nation is challenged. Seeing a fragmented Brazil here should be possible.

Empire of Amazonas?

Yes, the Amazon Empire. I never found a book that talked about this project in detail, I believe it has yet to be written. The reference I find of him is in my own work on independence in repucanism through Marco Moreal's work The Transformations of Public Spaces: Press, Political Actors and Sociabilities in the Imperial City (1820 - 1840)

 

[acidsun]

I don't want to go into too much detail on what content we have at this stage but I can say we do have the Ragamuffin War as that was going on at the start of the game.

Considering the Ragamuffin War will be represented, you should also consider representing the Cabanagem revolt in the northern state of Pará.

It was a very significant separatist revolt that could have spawned an independent state if successful.

As stated many times in this thread, Brazil between 1835 and 1845 was pretty much about trying not to fall apart into many states.

In future additions, such as flavor packs, previous and future separatist tendencies could also be represented somehow.

Today's Brazil could have been a fairly nicely developed place today if it wasn't for Getulio Vargas fascism in the early 20th century.

Indeed, Vargas' governments were terrible. He took our very prosperous agrarian country with an average GDP growth rate of <2% for the previous 100 years and completely halted its progress with his fast paced industrialization and average GDP growth rates of over 6%

 

[Slaughter]

Yes, the Amazon Empire. I never found a book that talked about this project in detail, I believe it has yet to be written. The reference I find of him is in my own work on independence in repucanism through Marco Moreal's work The Transformations of Public Spaces: Press, Political Actors and Sociabilities in the Imperial City (1820 - 1840)

Weeeird... I never head about this at all.

 

[gustavotoniato]

Weeeird... I never head about this at all.

The report is here

 

[AdmiralAckbar]

this is a very interesting thread and im an ignorant gringo so I don't have much to add i will just say i played brazil a few times in victoria 2 and it was pretty strong but also very boring and I had to basically resort to poking europe with a stick to entertain myself. i would really love to see not just it but south america in general get some love with events.

 

[Slaughter]

The report is here

Aaaaah, now THIS is some new, juicy information! I had never heard of this at all.

VERY interesting. This really seems like some pretty weird alternate history stuff that it would be very interesting to see the game cover.

 

[maucopa]

The report is here

Yet, the Cabanagem, the revolt that really happened in the region, didn't have a clear desire for independence. This Empire of Amazonas seems to be an attempt to create a motive to invade the north of Brazil. In 1836, the French taking advantage of the Cabanagem occupied a portion of nowadays Amapá.

 

[gustavotoniato]

Yet, the Cabanagem, the revolt that really happened in the region, didn't have a clear desire for independence. This Empire of Amazonas seems to be an attempt to create a motive to invade the north of Brazil. In 1836, the French taking advantage of the Cabanagem occupied a portion of nowadays Amapá.

In fact, there is Cabanagem, but what is very interesting in this report is that the separatist attempt did not come from the liberals, from where the revolts for decentralization are generally expected in Imperial Brazil. On the contrary, it was an attempt to build another centralized State, modeled on what would be the Pedro I Empire.

 

[gustavotoniato]

Aaaaah, now THIS is some new, juicy information! I had never heard of this at all.

VERY interesting. This really seems like some pretty weird alternate history stuff that it would be very interesting to see the game cover.

I have never found another reference to this account, not even in the scielo or in a book. Or even in encyclopedias.

 

[maucopa]

In fact, there is Cabanagem, but what is very interesting in this report is that the separatist attempt did not come from the liberals, from where the revolts for decentralization are generally expected in Imperial Brazil. On the contrary, it was an attempt to build another centralized State, modeled on what would be the Pedro I Empire.

The problem with this report is that it was done by a French representative. It does not seem to me that there is another source that points to the existence of this so-called conspiracy.

 

[geogus]

Once i read in a book ( dont recall the name) that the portuguese strategy in the brazil war of independence was, if not to hold all territory, at least keep the nort of brazil in Portugal hands, because the local elites were in favor to keep under Portugal than Rio de janeiro

 

[Zavaleta]

Quilombo enters chat.

 

[picope25]

Once i read in a book ( dont recall the name) that the portuguese strategy in the brazil war of independence was, if not to hold all territory, at least keep the nort of brazil in Portugal hands, because the local elites were in favor to keep under Portugal than Rio de janeiro

I didn't know about that, but it does make sense. The northernmost states were indeed closer to Lisboa than to Rio and answered directly to Lisboa during colonial times. Their delegates to the Portuguese constituent of 1820 were also much more hesitant to abandon the Cortes than the southern delegates.

 

[gustavotoniato]

The problem with this report is that it was done by a French representative. It does not seem to me that there is another source that points to the existence of this so-called conspiracy.

I think it's very unlikely that a minister would ask for cash support and troops without having some at least weird conversation going on. Because it wasn't a letter, it was an official report, if that had been leaked at the time it's likely I would have caused a scandal.

 

[Camara]

Once i read in a book ( dont recall the name) that the portuguese strategy in the brazil war of independence was, if not to hold all territory, at least keep the nort of brazil in Portugal hands, because the local elites were in favor to keep under Portugal than Rio de janeiro

It was the circunstances.

The north of Brazil was for the long time separate from Brazil itself, "Brazil" was only the southern half of modern day Brazil.
I don't remember when but I think it was in the late XVIIIth century that Portugal abolished those 2 administrative units and from then on "Brazil" was the name of the whole thing.
The north was very different from the south, it was much poorer and overlooked because all the flashy resources and big cities were in the south.

When Brazil declared independence a lot of brazilians in the north considered that joining that movement would be bad for them as they felt that Rio / São Paulo would monopolise even more the focus of investment and attention in those areas and that the north would be left even more abandoned than under portuguese rule.
So the "portuguese" part of the Brazilian-Portuguese mini-war was mostly "north brazilians" aka "portuguese" vs "south brazilians" aka "brazilians".

As you can imagine many people could literally decide if they were portuguese or brazilian as until then they were in many cases mostly the same. So many people and groups decided this based on their interests.

 

[Comrad Urio]

Second Male revolt to stabilish a Caliphate when?

 

[geogus]

When Brazil declared independence a lot of brazilians in the north considered that joining that movement would be bad for them as they felt that Rio / São Paulo would monopolise even more the focus of investment and attention in those areas and that the north would be left even more abandoned than under portuguese rule.
So the "portuguese" part of the Brazilian-Portuguese mini-war was mostly "north brazilians" aka "portuguese" vs "south brazilians" aka "brazilians".

As you can imagine many people could literally decide if they were portuguese or brazilian as until then they were in many cases mostly the same. So many people and groups decided this based on their interests.

Funny, once i read the newspaper article of the time that announced to the people the proclamation of Dia do Fico (proclamation of " I stay", when prince D. Pedro I, our future first ruler, announced he would stay in Brazil in defiance to Portugal´s order for him to return), it started with "portugueses of Brazil !" (portugueses do brasil) meaning brazilians.


That caught my eye as soon as i read it

 

[geogus]

Once i read in a book ( dont recall the name) that the portuguese strategy in the brazil war of independence was, if not to hold all territory, at least keep the nort of brazil in Portugal hands, because the local elites were in favor to keep under Portugal than Rio de janeiro

I didn't know about that, but it does make sense. The northernmost states were indeed closer to Lisboa than to Rio and answered directly to Lisboa during colonial times. Their delegates to the Portuguese constituent of 1820 were also much more hesitant to abandon the Cortes than the southern delegates.

After Brazil liberated Salvador, the brazilian fleet under britsh admiral Lord Cochrane sailed to the capital of the northern states to demand their submission to the cause of independence.

At São Luis city, one of the most important north cities, after the local governament surrended he sacked the city and returned to England, under the excuse the brazilian governament owend him money and that was the way to get himself paid.

Lord Cochrane died in UK and is burried at Westminster abbey

Well, two centuries later one (in)famous brazilian politician that was our president once, Jose Sarney, who is from São Luis, visited Cochrane tomb at Westminister and cursed him in the name of São Luis people : "Corsair", he said, and spit at his tomb.

Who says this is Jose Sarney himself, as you can see in this article written by him https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/fsp/opiniao/fz0711200307.htm (portuguese)

Point is, this shows how first relations between Brazil and its north states began, to sack Salvador city was unthinkable, but São Luis was treated as a conquered city.

 

[Follower of Nyarlathotep]

I wonder if it would be pertinent to include an event about a possible coup in the monarchy in the event that a female monarch ascends to the throne after the death of Dom Pedro II and the country as avoided becoming a republic, to reflect what might have happened thanks to Dom Pedro Augusto, "the conspirator prince", which was already preparing plans and seeking supporters for this endeavor. In my opinion in case he succeeds in the attempt perhaps it could reflect an decreases in militancy in the aristocracy and conservative pops, to reflect the conservative belief in Brazil at the time that a male monarch was preferable to a female one, although this could also rise the militancy of the liberals in case slavery as been abolished .

Although I do not know how impactful to gameplay this might be, since we are yet to see how influential or not the monarchs can overall, I believe it would at least interesting to see an alt-history scenario such as this one. Since I am not quite active at posting in the forums it seems I cannot post links, so terribly sorry for that, however Wikipedia does have an article on him.

 

[gustavotoniato]

We might as well start a project, when the game releases curation and suggestions about the history of Brazil in the 19th century, who knows how to make a mod.