Will the Asian tech group ever be buffed?

[wingzero890]

Currently, they sit on a massive 60% tech malus. This is in addition to starting off at an ahistoric tech level of 2 across the board.

Putting the Asian tech group on par with the Muslim tech group at the least would help make these nations feel like less of a burden to play as, while still making them 'inferior' to the Western tech group (which is clearly the design intent).

It is somewhat insulting that Japan and the Ming/Qing can theoretically be made into protectorates.

 

[WolfWaffle]

Yeah... that's bad
Especially China and Japan

It's like it was intentionally made bad for some DLC, yet paradox has yet to make one for them...
Which should have been the first DLC TBH

 

[wingzero890]

I'm fairly certain Japan and China are too large to accept protectorate status without taking much of their land away from them. But all Asian tech nations can be made into protectorate by Western tech nations (Indian too).

 

[zemuzil]

Yea and you have to do magic thing to westernize as Chinese tech group

because freaking trade companies bs

 

[Qoff]

Yeah... that's bad
Especially China and Japan

It's like it was intentionally made bad for some DLC, yet paradox has yet to make one for them...
Which should have been the first DLC TBH

Pretty much this.

 

[Outrider]

It is somewhat insulting that Japan and the Ming/Qing can theoretically be made into protectorates.

I think you mean hilarious.

And the non-sarcastic answer is that they have already been buffed in recent patches.

 

[wingzero890]

I think you mean hilarious.

And the non-sarcastic answer is that they have already been buffed in recent patches.

If you are referring to the unit rebalance, that was a nerf, because now even if you manage to westernize you do not receive western units. Even though Asian units are stronger at certain tiers, it is extremely difficult to keep up in Mil tech with the 60% malus, and you will most likely not have any military ideas if you do manage to keep up. Without bonus discipline, leader bonuses or morale bonuses, your units end up inferior anyways.

The removal of the -1 MP penalty was not just for the Asian tech group either.

 

[Outrider]

If you are referring to the unit rebalance, that was a nerf, because now even if you manage to westernize you do not receive western units. Even though Asian units are stronger at certain tiers, it is extremely difficult to keep up in Mil tech with the 60% malus, and you will most likely not have any military ideas if you do manage to keep up. Without bonus discipline, leader bonuses or morale bonuses, your units end up inferior anyways.

The removal of the -1 MP penalty was not just for the Asian tech group either.

I've managed to keep up as a horde (which has an even greater tech malus) and filled a MIL idea group, and that's with NF away from MIL most of the time. What in the world are you spending MIL points on?

As for pips (I'm assuming Chinese tech based on your post), the loss of Latin tech units is very minimal. At the max you're behind 4 pips in infantry, which will be split between shock and morale depending on the western unit you compare to. Where the pips matter most (fire) you are even.

Even then at late game, the most important units are Artillery, which all techs have in common.

 

[wingzero890]

It is easy to keep up in military ideas as a Horde because of the incredible 'no child can be khan' event which always gives you a strong leader. When I did my Great Khan playthrough I went offensive as my first idea as a matter of fact.

However Asian nations do not have the same strengths as hordes and if you are stuck with a terrible leader or regency council the effects are devastating, far more so than for a western tech nation. If you are saddled with a huge tech malus you absolutely need a strong leader and the best advisors you can buy to keep up.

Are you seriously defending the 60% tech malus?

 

[Wizzington]

They are getting better units at least.

 

[wingzero890]

They are getting better units at least.

 

[aitaituo]

Really, the only buff they need is to have their starting tech level raised to 3. It's always been weird that they're behind the Manchu technologically.

 

[grisamentum]

I'm fairly certain Japan and China are too large to accept protectorate status without taking much of their land away from them. But all Asian tech nations can be made into protectorate by Western tech nations (Indian too).

what are you talking about? if you 100% a nation in war you can make it a protectorate regardless of its size.

 

[wingzero890]

what are you talking about? if you 100% a nation in war you can make it a protectorate regardless of its size.

I have never really messed around with protectorates, I always take land. That's absolutely ridiculous, though.

 

[Outrider]

It is easy to keep up in military ideas as a Horde because of the incredible 'no child can be khan' event which always gives you a strong leader. When I did my Great Khan playthrough I went offensive as my first idea as a matter of fact.

However Asian nations do not have the same strengths as hordes and if you are stuck with a terrible leader or regency council the effects are devastating, far more so than for a western tech nation. If you are saddled with a huge tech malus you absolutely need a strong leader and the best advisors you can buy to keep up.

Are you seriously defending the 60% tech malus?

I'm refuting that the 60% malus has nearly the impact that you think it does. Your initial post implied that it was a struggle to stay on tech and that even "if" you could, you most likely wouldn't be able to take a MIL idea group.

An unlucky string of bad rulers doesn't support this assertion, as its unlikely to happen (though if it does happen, it sucks). An average ruler is all you need to stay current and snag an idea group. If you get good leaders or can afford higher tier advisors early, you shouldn't have any trouble doing 2 or more.

Hordes* do have a nice event that brings in good rulers if no heir/regency, but that fired....twice in my game. Most of the time I was dealing with 3 MIL rulers. I'd balance that against the extra 90 points per tech level and 3 point swing of setting NF away from MIL (could've had +2 instead of -1).



*Also...hordes are "Asian" nations even if they aren't China, Korea, or Japan.

 

[TheDanish]

In before eurocentrists argue it's historically appropriate.

 

[stevefs]

They are getting better units at least.

Thanks, Wiz! Since you're sharing, does this put the "Art of War" title reference squarely to Sunzi's book over Machiavelli's then?

 

[MathewPerth]

the tech malus will never get removed so there is no point arguing about that but i do agree they should start at tech three. the point malus removal and rebalancing of units was a big buff already.

 

[aitaituo]

the tech malus will never get removed so there is no point arguing about that but i do agree they should start at tech three. the point malus removal and rebalancing of units was a big buff already.

If anyone seriously wants to see tech group maluses removed entirely, I suggest checking out a mod in the steam workshop that does exactly that, though I'm afraid the name escapes me at the moment. I was going to try it out until I saw a review that said they ran an observe game and were delighted to discover there wasn't a single European province in the Americas.

 

[DanubianCossak]

In before eurocentrists argue it's historically appropriate.

a.) its called EUROPA universalis
b.) we need someone to roflstomp godzilla style, and who better than those lesser - tech groups