Will Sorties be Attackers or Defenders?

[Darkath]

I don't think people sieging forts should ever get terrain bonuses regardless of sorties: if you're sieging a fort you're stuck in one place and can't manuever to take advantage of terrain, and no one is going to put a fort in a position where the terrain perfectly shields a besieging army.

Yeah that's my opinion too.

In multiplayer it's quite convenient to take up defensive position in enemy territory while you siege their province, then the enemy won't attack you because you're on mountains or whatever and has no choice but to let the siege going on, or try to maneuveur around your forces or mountains. Which can be almost impossible in, say, persia.

Now that mountains are a 100% thing that's will even more reinforce this behavior.

 

[selectah]

So can we therefore give Johan, Wiz, and the Paradox folks some relief and time to work so that they can focus on getting a nice and working AoW released on October 30th, without having to be distracted by detailed questions? (We will get all answers then, be sure.)

I don't agree. This is the official paradox forum and a few days ago a DD was posted with some previews of new or changed features, what better place to discuss the potential details of these features? It's not like people are rushing to Johan's office to scream in his ear demanding moar information while he tries to put the finishing touches on the game; of course there should be threads discussing possible pros and cons, and if the devs decide to answer questions asked it is their choice - and I definitely think they are able to properly balance their work time between reading the forums and getting shit done.

 

[Red John]

That reminds me, was it ever answered whether or not the troops which have sortied will have the army bonuses like +disc +morale and all that?

 

[AKronblad]

I don't agree. This is the official paradox forum and a few days ago a DD was posted with some previews of new or changed features, what better place to discuss the potential details of these features? It's not like people are rushing to Johan's office to scream in his ear demanding moar information while he tries to put the finishing touches on the game; of course there should be threads discussing possible pros and cons, and if the devs decide to answer questions asked it is their choice - and I definitely think they are able to properly balance their work time between reading the forums and getting shit done.

It's not the threads and the discussions between gamers I have a problem with (they're actually quite enjoyable to read, but then again I don't have a game release in 18 days....); it's the detailed questions and above all the detailed questioning directed at e.g. Johan and Wiz about disliked features that people haven't even yet seen or let alone played.

It's only human even for professional game developers to glance at the comments here and potentially get distracted by the riot or the questioning directed at Paradox, as mentioned above.

Hence, everyone should feel free to discuss and voice their opinions as much as they want, but please don't direct these nitty-gritty questions (you'll find out on Oct. 30 anyway and until then you can't do much about the information anyway) and questioning of their reasoning to Paradox: that's all I'm asking for.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I apologize if you've answered this before, but will garrisons now use manpower to replenish?

Or at the very least, will damaged troops who've sortied and won require manpower to regenerate?

If not, carpet sieging is effectively dead in the early game. (Assuming AI knows how to use it)

If you carpet with an extra regiment compared to the garrison, you'll beat it. Your units use manpower to replenish. Besieged garrisons do not replenish and if they took heavy casualties are vulnerable to assault.

I just hope the AI isn't baited into spamming it (especially by other AI) and crapping on its own military tech.

 

[kitemasaki]

If you carpet with an extra regiment compared to the garrison, you'll beat it. Your units use manpower to replenish. Besieged garrisons do not replenish and if they took heavy casualties are vulnerable to assault.

I just hope the AI isn't baited into spamming it (especially by other AI) and crapping on its own military tech.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Human self-control and mistakes are one thing, but an AI...i can just see them getting stuck at a tech level from consecutive wars. Maybe they will get a discount of some sort?

 

[Chamboozer]

Sorties will have a special rule that lets them use the defending terrain as long as it's *only* the sortie troops (no river crossings however). If you pile in more troops to help a sortie the enemies will get the terrain bonus instead.

Still giving terrain bonus to the army which is half-invested in a hostile fortress.

It makes no sense whatsoever and is absolutely terrible for gameplay. It makes it harder for weaker countries to defend their own territory when they have mountainous or other defensive terrain, because they have to keep running from place to place breaking the more numerous enemy sieges, rather than being able to stay in place to take advantage of the terrain. This situation causes the invaders to get all the advantages of defense.

Imagine Switzerland being invaded by France. Switzerland has one stack, France has two or three. At the start of the war the French stacks move in to besiege two Swiss provinces, province #1 and province #2. In province #1, they are defeated by the defending Swiss army. #2 is empty, so a siege starts. The Swiss army then has to break the French siege or else they will lose #2 and the war. They attack, -5 due to mountains. They beat the French army barely. During that battle, the other French stack moved in to besiege the now empty province #1. And the situation repeats ad infinitum, with every battle fought by the defending Swiss giving the actual defensive bonuses to the attacking French. It's silly and, as much as I hate to use this word, broken.

 

[Zander]

I don't think people sieging forts should ever get terrain bonuses regardless of sorties: if you're sieging a fort you're stuck in one place and can't manuever to take advantage of terrain, and no one is going to put a fort in a position where the terrain perfectly shields a besieging army.

While this would make sense, it doesn't really fit with the game mechanics. Specifically, if you cancel your siege a day (or x days) before the battle, do you then get defensive terrain? Because that would also make sense, but if so this just becomes another way to hose the AI.

 

[Red John]

If you carpet with an extra regiment compared to the garrison, you'll beat it. Your units use manpower to replenish. Besieged garrisons do not replenish and if they took heavy casualties are vulnerable to assault.

I just hope the AI isn't baited into spamming it (especially by other AI) and crapping on its own military tech.

How so? If I understand it correctly, if I'm sieging a mountain province and they sortie, I get a penalty, right?

It's a pretty big penalty to overcome with only 1k extra troops.

 

[Vishaing]

It's necessary for sorties not to become the 'click 1 day before my doomstack arrives to get mountain bonus' button.

That could be accomplished without giving the former besieging army the defense bonus just because some new people showed up.

Given the upcoming change of static terrain types it would add a pretty interesting new dimension if we instead had ways to remove or even magnify the Terrain Type bonuses. This would be a good way to give Maneuver back some of its influence on Terrain Type, while leaving the system static.

 

[highsis]

Sorties will have a special rule that lets them use the defending terrain as long as it's *only* the sortie troops (no river crossings however). If you pile in more troops to help a sortie the enemies will get the terrain bonus instead.

Good Idea, I suggested it myself in dev diary. Since sorties have no leaders it would have been meaningless if they had no terrain advantage, because adding 1k troop to the siege would have have it waste of military points, or if in doubt, 2k.

 

[Chamboozer]

Will there be any benefit to performing a sortie when you're seriously outnumbered, or would that just stackwipe your garrison and end the siege?

 

[kitemasaki]

How so? If I understand it correctly, if I'm sieging a mountain province and they sortie, I get a penalty, right?

It's a pretty big penalty to overcome with only 1k extra troops.

I think the point is that you can sortie your garrison, which may win you that 1 siege; however, the enemy can just send another stack right in afterwards. While your troops recover manpower, your garrisons cannot while under siege. So that garrison is now weaker and another sortie would result in defeat.

 

[Dr. B]

Ah, the wonderous tales bards will sing of this feature!

Brave relief troops engaged in furious battle with the besieging enemy army, the battle rages on back and forth with boths sides getting exhausted...
Suddely a triumphant cry, as 3000 bloodthirsty soliders charge forth from the castle, throwing themselves into the melee, combining forces with their allies and routing the enemy army.

I like this feature a lot!!

 

[ahhheygao]

Will it be possible to Sortie while a battle is taking place to help your forces?

I'd like to hear more about this, too, because:

Ah, the wonderous tales bards will sing of this feature!

Brave relief troops engaged in furious battle with the besieging enemy army, the battle rages on back and forth with boths sides getting exhausted...
Suddely a triumphant cry, as 3000 bloodthirsty soliders charge forth from the castle, throwing themselves into the melee, combining forces with their allies and routing the enemy army.

I like this feature a lot!!

 

[Beagá]

This really looks like yet another feature that will help player more than AI, but time will tell.

 

[spinoza013]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Human self-control and mistakes are one thing, but an AI...i can just see them getting stuck at a tech level from consecutive wars. Maybe they will get a discount of some sort?

It's why I thought sorties might only be available at higher fort level. Maybe you could add a postern gate in build menu?

 

[mrzacharyjensen]

Are the Tech Level/Morale/Discipline of the sorties the same as the rest of the army? And would it be possible to improve the combat ability of the sorties specifically, through ideas, for instance?

 

[zedyue]

Personally I'd like a unique "Near Fort" terrain that does absolutely nothing. I mean if you're sending out your garrison they still aren't going to be far from the fort else the attacking army would go around and capture the fort from behind them. Also it doesn't make much sense most of the time to leave a fort in order to take up defensive terrain elsewhere (in the mountains or whatever) since unless the fort is really messed up you want to stay in walls.

 

[Curiouser]

If your sortie from a mountain province, the battle can last quite long -- mountain battles are like that. That would give a considerable window of time for the attacker to reinforce the battle. In practice, that's how I imagine all the mountain sorties are going to be like.